SUMMARY OF THE SHOW
Daniel Mangena is an entrepreneur, motivational speaker, philanthropist, and best-selling author. His work has been featured in major publications worldwide, including NBC, CBS, Market Watch, and FOX. Daniel is from Stratford, England, and joins me from his home in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico, to discuss a life-shattering trauma that he experienced at the age of twenty. TOPICS THAT I DISCUSS WITH DANIEL:
LIST OF RESOURCES AND CONTACT DETAILS MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE To learn more about Daniel Mangena and to connect with him, visit https://dreamwithdan.com LISTEN NOW
SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Claire Rogers My next guest Daniel Mangena is an entrepreneur, philanthropist and best-selling author and is from Stratford, England and is joining me here today from his home in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico. He's here with me to discuss a life shattering trauma that he experienced at age 20. So, without further ado, let me introduce you to Daniel. Welcome to the Bootcamp for the Mind and Soul podcast, Daniel. Daniel Mangena Hey, hey, hey. Claire Rogers So, tell me about the life shattering trauma. I know we've talked about this before, we had a really good giggle last time we chatted. So, let's start how we chatted last time. Can I give a bit of background to it? Of course. Daniel Mangena Let's give the background. So, I got a place at Keeble College, Oxford University to study politics, philosophy and economics. It was a three A's or five.... So, I had to get three A's to get my place. I generally got A's anyway, all my predicted grades were A's. I was doing four A levels, so I actually had four chances to get the three grades I needed. Then somehow, I got the highest for my A2, the second half of my A levels. The highest grade that I got was a D or something like that. I've never had a C in an exam in my life, I've never had; going back through my entire education history. I've never had a C. Mostly A's a couple of B's that I've got my weak area, it's basically I get a B. So, this kind of threw me off a bit. I called up the admissions office at Keeble. I begged them. I said, "Something must be wrong. Is there any way they can hold my place? Can I retake my exams?" They said, "No, sorry, we've already given your place away." I ended up losing all of the places. The only university that I didn't get into was Warwick University. But every other university I got into. Now, I could have got into; I could have got my place at my backup Uni, which I think was Brunel. But I wasn't interested in going to an ex-polytechnic. I basically spent the next week arguing; because you don't really argue with grandparents. You make your statement once and then you spend the rest of the week being told that you don't speak back; and my proposition was, "Hey, let me... something's wrong here. Something's definitely wrong. Let me retake my exams and then I'll re-apply to university with my results and try again." Obviously, I got in this time. If I re-apply with the results, I've got a high chance of making it in. Obviously they like me. My parents said no and so a week later, I had to go through something called the clearing system. The current system basically is what's left after all the places have been given away. You go through a clearing system and you see where there's actually availability in places. So, I went through the university rankings, I look for a red brick Uni, so it's an actual University. I picked up some snobbiness from my parents, I think one ex-polytechnic. Claire Rogers Actually, can I interrupt you there for us non-Brits. What does ex-polytechnic University mean? Daniel Mangena It's a college that basically got awarded University status. So, it's like new kid on the block basically. Or as red brick Uni's were always universities; established universities. Generally, they tend to be older and generally tend to have higher pedigree for one of the reasons. So, I wanted to do economics and finance, which isn't something that every university does. Economics and finance or economics and something else is what I want to do. I didn't want to do pure economics because it tends to be more mathematic. Anyway, managed to find a place and much to my disdain, listened to my parents. So, I went off to do this and then about, I think it was like three months into my degree; wasn't very far into it. The story broke, that actually, something had gone wrong. They deliberately downgraded everybody's papers because they thought that the exam was too easy, because I had actually got 100% on one of my AS levels, one of my macro-economic paper, I got 100% on the exam. That's who I was. And that was the person they said that got C's and end up with D's, E's and it was terrible. Anyway, so now the story breaks. I'm like, "Oh my god, I'm vindicated." This is in the evening, right? "I'm vindicated. Yes, I knew it. I didn't get these results that they said I got." So, I called my dad and was like, because basically what the thing that you had to do was the next day, you had to take your actual transcript slips to your college, and they will actually send it off to get your papers. Get your grade sorted. But I was in Hull in the north-east of England, there was no way that I'd be able to get to my college in time based on the travel time it would take for me to get from home, back to London, get out to Essex, get my transcripts and whatnot and get back to London to get my stuff re-graded. So, I called my dad and was like, "Dad. I knew it. There's something wrong. Did you see the news? Can you go to my college and get my transcripts?" And he said, "It's over son, you lost your place at Oxford. Just get over it." And he hung the phone up on me. I didn't talk to my dad for 18 months after that. Something you need to understand about my dad, which is going to provide some background to this whole story is my dad's job, was he was a business advisor. He literally ran business development agencies for a living. Alright. And this is the man I wasn't talking to which will add some spice. You're laughing because you know a bit more about what happens. So, from that day I was just red with anger; I have been robbed. I'd gone through the embarrassment of people asking me for months, "How is it at Oxford?" and me saying, "I lost my place. I'm at Hull." Hull was the armpit of the country; no disrespect to anyone from Hull, but it's the armpit of the country and I was livid. I stopped going to my lectures. I didn't give my homework in. I walked into exams and just took them and didn't really care about what happened and I became determined that I was going to be a millionaire instead. Now, I'd already started visualization. I'd already started by working to study metaphysics. I'd already started my journey into studying about what now we call manifestation from about the age of 16. So, I decided that I was going to make that journey practical, and I was going to apply it now and I was going to be a millionaire. That's what I became obsessed with doing. I started spending more time coming down to London, because I was just not even really going to university all that much. I ended up one day finding, one thing that showed up was we found a company called Gem Discounts. What they did was they sell wholesale electronics. So, you’d spend like two grand, you get like a mixed batch parcel of stuff, but then you don't know what's inside. You're paying like 20 cents on the pound, 20 pence on the pound or something for the parcel. The business idea I had was, "Oh, I'm going to buy these parcels, basically and break them up and then sell them." My friend Joel; I was using his brother's computer, and his brother sees behind over my shoulder. He said, "What's that?" "It's this idea, I'm just trying to work out what I'm going to do with it." And he goes, "Oh my god, I can help you sell that." And that's where the business was born. It started off with that. Then, over time, there was other opportunities. I found a way to get cheap cars and all this stuff. Long story short, he got some of his friends and they got some of their friends and before we knew it, there was like 20 people working in an office doing a variety of different things. But here's where the problem was clear. The way that we raised the money was we got friends and families and people that everybody knows to put money into the business, which we then use to buy stock, to run deals, get letters of credit. We turn out millions of pounds. However, apparently this is a criminal organization because you're not allowed to take investment; even from friends and family in the UK unless you have something. A licence from an organization called the FCA. So that means every single penny that we made became proceeds of crime. Claire Rogers I'll interrupt just to tell our listeners that FCA stands for the Financial Conduct Authority, Daniel Mangena And they do a brilliant job. Their job is to protect the public from rogue people, basically. So here I am, 19 years old... Claire Rogers Going rogue. Daniel Mangena Going rogue, apparently. People are making money. Everything's good except that when we inevitably got shut down because we didn't have a licence; running around doing this. People end up losing money because we're not trading anymore. Fast forward four years when the investigation finally comes to its head. We have two trials. The first trial we won, effectively. It was hung jury's; not guilty. Hung jury basically means that not everybody agrees on a verdict. But if you look at the fact that we'd got not guilty for everything else, it was probably 10 or 11 people said not guilty and one or two said guilty. But anyway, we had a retrial. On a retrial, all of my co-defendants suddenly didn't have certain charges and were giving evidence to say that I was responsible for everything that happened. People that we had proven when lying in the first trial, were allowed to come up on the stand and actually go down and change their testimony. Claire Rogers Can I interrupt you there? This probably sounds ignorant, but can you not just say, "I didn't know I was supposed to be regulated. Hands up. Sorry." Doesn't matter. ignorance. And here's the problem. Here's the problem. It wasn't even their fault. When I; arrogant little toe-rag Mangena; was brought in to the police station to answer questions about this. I was like, "Do you know who I am?" I was rolling my eyes. I was yawning at the police. I basically, didn't exactly inspire any assistance. I basically raised the red flag in front of a bull and said, "Come and get me." And they did. This is the crazy thing. I'm very confident, for a while I was like, "Oh, it's because I'm black and all this stuff." Really it's because I was an asshole. Alright. There may have been some racial stuff in there. But I was an ignorant little asshole that thought, "I haven't done anything wrong so screw you." Little did I know; they were able to find some technical charges. They got me on the Companies Act. I was registered to be an electronics distributions company. It's illegal to be registered as a company to do one thing and do something else. Yeah. I didn't have an FCA licence, so they got me on the charge for that. And they got me another one for basic proceeds of crime; money laundering; because anything that I made was then proceeds of crime. So, every penny that I spent, was money laundering. So anyway, suffice to say, I did end up in prison at the end of it. How long for? Daniel Mangena I actually had to do the math on this, and someone asked me this the other day, and I got it wrong. So, the reason why I was confused, because my sentencing changed a number of times. Initially, I had seven years. Because; and this is unheard of, it's my first offence, completely clean history, they did it consecutive, which means that they added everything together. Claire Rogers So, it's not concurrent. To make it concurrent they made everything consecutive. Which was like, you don't do that. And they gave me the maximum sentence for everything. You must have really pissed them off. I really pissed everybody off. And I own this, I can own this now. At the time was like, "I'm a victim." But if you're gonna piss everyone off, this is what's going to happen. Okay. So first of all, there was that, then I ended up part...little did I know, part and parcel of the deal that got done was I was responsible for accounting for all of the money. So, when they came with the proceeds of crime order afterwards, where they tried to claw all the money back, I was left holding the baby. But here's the funny thing. I wasn't the one bringing investors into the business. And I wasn't the one that was actually on the day to day moving money in and out of the bank account. But I was the person that had to account for it, which I couldn't do. So, I ended up getting another six year or five-year sentence for the money that I couldn't account for. Which again, was consecutive. So that happened in six months. So, I'm already looking at seven years of get in. And then I think six months later, or something like that we're tacking more time on. And when I went through that trauma, my lawyer didn't show up, the person who did show up didn't know what they were talking about. I'm trying to say, "Hey, no, that's not correct." They're telling me to shut up and I got slammed with another notice. How old were you, sorry, when you when you got sentenced? Daniel Mangena This time, I'm 24. By the time this happened I'm 24. So here I am basically looking at 12 years or something crazy like that. But then we managed to get; I managed to post-show, basically by myself because I was refused legal aid; because I wanted to fight that. But the judge refused me any legal aid. So, I had to basically by myself write letters, and I managed to get the six years or whatever it is down to two years. Then we managed to get one appeal. They changed the sentencing guidelines. They changed the law to be able to basically still give me a longer sentence. They made everything concurrent, but then they increase the minimum sentence. Anyway, that's what it is. So, the thing that was crazy about this whole thing was that I literally started off with like, "I'm going to prove everyone wrong. I'm going to do this." Then it morphed into, "Oh my God, I've got a gift here. I can help people." It's people like my business partners; Grandma. She had some money problems. She wouldn't accept money. So, it's like, "Oh, yeah, just give it to me I'll invest it for you." I didn't, I just gave her the money back. These were the stories I actually ended up getting convicted for because I said, "Oh, you're a liar." There were people that were implanted into trouble that I was basically using as a way to give them financial assistance. And there was all sorts of funny things. Someone said, "Oh, I know. I was talking to Mr. Mangena because I spoke to someone with an African accent." There was a series of these nonsensical things. But long story short, during that time that the investigation was going on, I basically made another multi-million-pound fortune. Yeah, I made up another one because when I first lost, when they first clamped everything, first and foremost, I didn't think that it was going to be lost. In my head, I create my own reality. This is just a bump in the road. When they get to trial, I'm going to prove my innocence or they're going to drop the case; I even thought they'd drop the case or something like that. I'm going to get that money back. And in the meantime, I'm going to keep myself busy doing it again. So, I went off again, I was doing project funding. I was doing high-level consulting. People would pay me 1000 pounds an hour to pick my brain, basically, because they're like, "Who's this kid? He's like 20 years old." So, I was making a lot of money with like a 10-grand retainer, if you wanted to work with me. Built that up. Then a lot of that went into real estate in 2007. Claire Rogers Boom, a crash in 2008. Daniel Mangena Not the best time to do that. Then what was left, basically everyone that I was working with as soon as I got locked up, they basically ran off with all the money and disappeared and changed phone numbers. So basically, when I first got locked up, I was mad, I was angry. I was like, "Oh, my God." At first, I was like, "What's gone? What's going on?! But I didn't realize how much of a tidal wave had happened. I didn't realize I'd actually, lost everything. Because as far as I was concerned, you know what, at first it's calm, I'm still believing, alright, this is just a bump in the road. So, I was like, "Okay", so in my head, I'm like, "Okay, I'm gonna make this university that I can't leave. I'm going to just; I'm just going to think." Then when I found out one by one, things just started to be revealed to me that it's actually a lot more serious than I thought. First of all, I was in Wandsworth prison, which I found out was one of the most dangerous prisons in the UK Claire Rogers South of the river, isn't it? In London? Daniel Mangena Yeah, south of the river. So, then I find I've lost everything; it's actually gone. And then it hit me. And the first one's gone. And then it hit me. I've been sitting here for the last four years saying that everything's gonna be okay. And it's clearly not okay. And I cracked. Claire Rogers So, were you in there for four years when you cracked? No, no, no, I'd been in there for like a week or two. When I found that everything had gone sideways. I was like, "Oh, my God," because what happened was I was in with a guy called; I'm not gonna say his name, actually. I was in there with one guy who was doing the life sentence and he kind of was like, you know, he was a really cool guy. He's like, "Let me show you the ropes. This is how things are". Then he got moved, and I got put in with a heroin addict. So, as I'm finding out everything's gone to pants, I'm sitting there with a guy sitting in the corner smoking heroin. Claire Rogers In prison? Daniel Mangena Yeah. Claire Rogers How does he access that in prison? Oh, my God, you'd be surprised what people get in prison. We could tell some stories about that. Wandsworth was a bit interesting. You can get anything you want. People used to get all sorts of stuff in. Yeah, it was a whole thing. The prison guards were being paid to bring stuff in. There was one guy on my wing, he'd managed to hide that his wife was a prison guard. So, his wife was bringing him stuff and that was a big blow. So here I am with this guy in the corner, smoking heroin. I'm sitting there in a crappy prison tracksuit and it really hit me that I'm going to be spending the next; but that something's like three or four years I was expecting to see expended my life before it went up after a little bit; in this. All because the funny thing was, as everything started to go to pants with the business. I reconnected with my dad, just at the tail end of everything. Claire Rogers Who could have told you from the outset, you need to get an FCA license? Daniel Mangena Yes. And the funny thing is, by the time that I've been arrested, I started the process of applying for an FCA license. It was because it was a group of us; no one person was in charge; we all work together. But for two weeks, I was in charge of the whole business and during that two weeks is when everything went sideways. So, I brought my dad in, we started to make some changes, get new banking and all sorts of other stuff. Anyway, long story short, it was too-little-too-late, by then the damage had already been done. Well no, the damage had already been started the damage was complete with my stinky attitude. So, here's me, snobby little snot-faced 24-year-old who's walked in thinking, "It's alright I'm gonna be a millionaire, I'm gonna be fine." Claire Rogers Yeah. I'll find my way out of here. Daniel Mangena I'm just like, "No, no you're not getting out. This is life now." And here like I said, I cracked, and I looked around me and there wasn't...this is the thing; and I speak about this sometimes in my talks when I speak; there wasn't some hyped up, big emotional thing. Oh my god, it wasn't like I was in the deep, dark place. I just looked and I said, "Wow, I've done it. I've completely messed up." As far as I was concerned, there's nothing more to contribute. What am I going to be adding now? I've got a criminal record which means-. I've never had a job, remember? I didn't finish my degree. I'm a 24-year-old up never had a job. I thought I worked in a cinema when I was 16 serving popcorn because I liked serving popcorn. I thought it was fun for life skills. I knew nothing of the world, really. I didn't have any ability to actually go out and be a productive member of society. I started having flashes of films, like, "What am I gonna be doing? Just living on the dole for the rest of my life, unable to get a job? Claire Rogers Sorry to interrupt for our American and Canadian. Also, anybody who's not British, I should say the dole is unemployment insurance, Daniel Mangena Unemployment benefits, basically. Or I'm going to end up working on a building site or... I remember, I think I had a flash of the film 'Gone in 60 Seconds', where Angelina Jolie comes out from the thing she goes, "I've got to go to work." And Nicholas Cage goes, "Oh, but you're at work. While it looks like you've got to work twice as hard." Am I gonna be learning to be a mechanic? I was like, this isn't going to be life, this is going to be life. I said, "Okay. It makes sense now. I've already brought shame to the family name. I've got nothing to contribute here. What are my options for just taking my own life?" One thing that would have been possible for me would have been cutting my wrists open, but you've got a cellmate who can hit the alarm. If I don't do it right; which I've seen people with the cut marks; then I'm going to end up with these pathetic scars on my wrist to say that I tried it. I won't be able to hang myself, there's nowhere really to hang yourself from, I'd have to do it from the bed. The likelihood is I'm going to get found, that's not really going to work out. I could maybe start gathering paracetamol pills or something from the infirmary and do that, but then they could pump my stomach and then that's going to be sad. There's no way to do this. I said, "Well, maybe there is," and that's when it hit me. Everything had worked up to a point I'd actually achieved my goal. Had not only been a millionaire once, I've been a millionaire twice. It worked. That's what I've been focused on. But something was wrong with everything around it. I need to fix what's wrong with that model so that I can apply that and then come up with a strategy. Write an intention and set up, because the thing is, money being made can then last. The actual initial instance happened, but it didn't stay. If I kill myself, there's no way that I can come back from that, and undo it. But I didn't want to take any chances. So, the mission was take my model of vision: purpose, faith, gratitude, which is what I was using up to that time, and fix it. So that when I commit suicide, nothing goes wrong. And that's what I set off to do. Claire Rogers That was your new goal. Daniel Mangena That was my goal. Claire Rogers And is it literally because you could not see a future or is it what? I mean its Wandsworth prison. Well, it's got is got a notoriety about it as well. Was it the fear of being in prison and the people you were with? Daniel Mangena No, no, no. It was just what was I going to do? I was going to spend the next few years duking it out to come out and be what just a pathetic ex con. Claire Rogers Because you've got a criminal record, and I'm imagining it's difficult to build a life once you've got that. Daniel Mangena I had no mental cognitive connection with a life that wasn't me being an entrepreneur, going out making, that's what I do. That's who I was. That was my identity that had been built up from quite a young age. I didn't have any context for anything else. I wasn't thinking, "Oh, you know, I can go and get a degree or, you know, maybe even do something else." I just saw that everything that I done and ripped away and it had been ripped away because I delusionally thought, believed that this...and it wasn't manifesting at the time. Manifesting as a word kind of came out 2006-2007, it was I create my own reality. I am a conscious reality creator, and that now is just poppycock. So, I've been living this lie and I didn't know what to do with that. I was completely disillusioned at the thought of what I meant as a person, and facing down everyone I’d arrogantly looked down on, that I judged, that I'd said "Oh, look how pathetic they are, they don't create their reality. I do. This is what there was. I didn’t have a way of putting those two together. So, the most logical thing that made sense; which is to take suicide and commit suicide in my life. Claire Rogers What about your dad and your mom? Did you not think about them? Think, "Well, I shouldn't do it for them or...? Daniel Mangena I thought I was actually doing them a favor by actually just not being there to embarrass them anymore. Claire Rogers Really? So, then it becomes your mission to kill yourself? Daniel Mangena Just to fade away. Claire Rogers But you're here with me today, so something obviously changes in that goal. Describe to me what that was like. So, then you make an admission that you're going to kill yourself. So, what do you do actively every day? Try and figure out how you're going to do that? Daniel Mangena No, I had to work out what was wrong with the model. Because at the end of the day, as far as I could see, I was a failure. So, what I needed to do is I need to undo me being a failure. And like I said, I knew something worked with my original model. There was something to it because I got there, but I didn't hold it. So, I needed to dissect that. I went back as much as I could to order the books that I read before. I went into new books, I went into tapes, I was going back over; poring over what I knew; I was going over the practices. I was looking at stories of people who had overcome adversity, I would looking at stories of people who had done great things and I was looking for those threads. Because I had to see what was wrong with vision, purpose, faith, gratitude; because it worked up to a point. As I went on that journey; got to remember; I was spending hours a day, hours. 23 hours a day you're locked in a very small room. It's like you work out stuff. So, then I didn't notice that the light was starting to shine in on my situation. I didn't notice it because I was so focused. But what was happening was is that much the way that many of us do this with negativity, I was doing this with positivity. I was spending so much time in positive content that my brain was getting rewired. Claire Rogers Right, okay. Daniel Mangena All of my inputs, I wasn't really associating with people. I was just sitting down. I ended up getting new skills. I learned to play the guitar, I learned languages, I would just keep my brain busy. So, my brain was operating at probably the sharpest level it's ever operated, because I had to keep my brain sharp so that I could stay focused on this mission. Claire Rogers Can I interrupt you there? So, you're programming your brain, but how do you do that in such a terrifying environment? I mean, I'd like to talk about the prison experience, if you don't mind, because I'm trying to figure out how do you keep that positive mindset; although it's a bit weird; your positive mindset towards killing yourself? How do you keep that mindset while you're in such a scary environment? Because I'm imagining prison, you're in a perpetual state of fear, or am I wrong there? Daniel Mangena Here's something that actually clicked in when I got my Asperger’s. I got my Asperger’s diagnosis when I was 27 so it was towards the end of my time that came in. Because I didn't really feel fear. Fear wasn't something that really kicks in. I don't have extreme emotional states, because of the way my brain works because of Asperger’s. I don't have impulsive responses or reactions to things. Everything has to go through processing. Claire Rogers Okay, yeah. Daniel Mangena So, if something that should be fearful comes up, my brain actually goes to process that; needs to make sense of it before I can have a response to it. So generally speaking, everything goes through a logical process. So, for example, it was generally the people that are involved in like, internal criminal actions, like whether they're drug dealers, or drug takers, or they steal stuff from people, but they'll do that because they had stuff to steal. A lot of people like inter-gang, or inter-area warfare, but I wasn't in this world. There was people that I view, like, there was a time when a guy had robbed somebody, and then the people that he robbed came to the prison, and they were in another wing. And because he thought that they were gonna get him, he managed to sneak there and get a knife and like, try to kill him and... but they had stuff going on, I didn't have any stuff. Claire Rogers So, you could avoid the dangerous situations? Daniel Mangena Yeah. And the thing is, is that I had people that I'd play chess with, for example. But they tended to be people like me that were like, we're not prison people. They're like, they've made a mistake, like someone's there for tax evasion or something like that. So those of us that were in that kind of situation tended to end up migrating into to each other. And I kind of, I learned to keep my head down, really. And the attitude that had got me into trouble, quickly, you see that's probably not going to work here. I remember there was one guy who got his face cut open because, again, this is the thing about attitude. Someone had asked him for an extra piece of bread. He hadn't asked very nicely. So, Scarface says to him, "No, eff off." He says, "Okay." He goes, comes back, "Can have another piece of bread?" "I told you to eff off," boom, cuts his face open over a bit of bread. I had no intention of being a part of that. So, I didn't, I just basically stayed out of it. But the automatic response now, there are like I've had stomach trouble since that time, so I know that there was a physiologic response to an innate level of trauma from being in that situation. My insomnia flared up towards the end of my time and got really, really bad. That's when I ended up being referred to Dr. Helen McEwen who's one actually diagnosed my Asperger’s because we saw that they were inter-connected. So, there was definitely stuff. It's not a nice experience. There was a lot of depressive episodes during that time. But I was so focused on my mission, that although the mission did change, I was so focused on the mission that I was quite distracted, and didn't really have a conscious awareness of the environment. It's like, "Okay, this is when I'm doing this thing." Claire Rogers How did you change your mission from wanting to kill yourself to now you're not going to do that? Daniel Mangena I didn't change it. I didn't change, its kind of just changed by itself. And the funny thing is, you know, people have asked me, "But, when was the aha moment? What was that like?" There wasn't one honestly, Claire, it was just kind of, you just notice that "Oh, I'm writing a book about this stuff that I've been studying. That's not the behavior of someone that wants to kill them self anymore. I haven't really obsessed over if there's any new options that have arisen. Okay. Oh, I'm making plans for the future. Oh, when my mind is quiet, and visions are coming up. I'm actually having hopeful visions of the future rather than these dark depressive thoughts about being a bum living on the street with nothing to say." So, it kind of just evolved over time, until I just found myself I suppose, as giving in more to those positive visions. And the idea that everything's not over. And then I remember, I started to reach out to people that I knew from all the business and what would happen was that my I'd call my girlfriend at the time and she'd email them for me. And then they'd email back and then she'd read me the responses over the phone. I started to build relationships with people like, "Oh, you know. I know that this isn't new, you know I've got your back; anything you need." And some people were like, "Yeah, don't email me again," obviously. There were still people that were like, "You know, if you need anything," and then people would write me these beautiful letters. At first, I couldn't receive it. But I found myself able to receive letters and able to actually respond to them. Now remember, I remember when I said to my girlfriend, I'm like, "Just forget about me. Go and carry on with your life. I don't want to hold you back or whatever." And finally, about six months she kept writing me and writing me and writing me. Then I found myself able to receive even those letters and say, "You know what, thank you. Like, I still want you to live your life. But you can come and see me if you want." Yeah, my outlook...I knew my outlook had changed because the way that I was responding, and my behaviors and my choices were changing. Again, this is part and parcel of what's really started to underpin what my model evolved into because then I noticed as well, that I stopped blaming other people. I stopped. I was able to just acknowledge, "You know what? The police were doing their job." Claire Rogers Yeah "And I did this to myself." Daniel Mangena "I did this to myself." At the end of the day, I was 19 years old. I had no business running around the City of London, doing multi-million-pound deals, like just go get drunk, finish your degree, but like, live some life. When I look at even my co-defendants, they had families, they had kids, and I wasn't nice. I didn't exactly inspire. Would I have done the same thing in their situation? No, but I'm a different person. People hate where they are against what was done. So, the responses changed, my thoughts about things changed. And as I got deeper and deeper into it, stuff just started to make sense. As I started to put pen to paper with this, and map it out, I saw where I'd fudged up. And the more that I saw where I'd fudged up, and that I didn't have to fudge up and that other pieces started to come in; understanding the mind at an even deeper level than I understood it before because I had more time to go even deeper into the mind. Doing all of this with a lot of humility, as well. A key thing, you know, the first step of beyond intention, the model that I work with now that evolved in this time, except the foundation of that is something I call common denominator theory. Which is that I'm the central figure in everything. There's only one common thread of all my experiences, and that's me. So, if I change me, then things have to change. When I started to overlap that with a lot of the stuff I learnt from the world of esoterics and started to find science and facts and real stories that actually gave substance to that. I saw more and more and more and more and more. This just unfolded because of who and what I was at the time. The choices that I had made had unfolded to this. So, if I change those choices, I can change my reality. Claire Rogers So, when you came to that conclusion, how much longer did you have in that bit, in that sentence? Daniel Mangena This is something that continued to evolve into me coming out. So, I got out, and I had some shakes because when I did get out I did try and go and get a job. And exactly as I thought, I couldn't even get a job as a cleaner, which was hilarious. Claire Rogers Oh really? Nobody was willing to give you a second chance? Daniel Mangena No, nobody. Absolutely nobody. Claire Rogers Why do you think that is? Do you think people just don't believe in atonement? Daniel Mangena Ultimately, I think it's because I didn't want it. When I look at this, like down the rabbit hole, I didn't really want a job. I wanted to get myself together. So, I reached back out to some of my business contacts and decided, "Okay, let's find if there's a problem that exists in the world that I can solve and maybe try and do something from there." A couple of people gave me a chance, I was then able to find a part time job. Claire Rogers Yeah. Daniel Mangena In a call center, which I worked in the call center from one o'clock in the afternoon till nine o'clock at night. So, I got up in the morning, I'd work on my business, I'd go to the gym, then I'd go to work, I'd sit under the desk with my Blackberry. And I built that business up in, hang on...within three years I built up to a seven figure a year business. Claire Rogers Amazing. Daniel Mangena Yeah. But very, very different this time; didn't involve anybody else. There was no need for the FCA because there's no regulated activity, anytime anything even remotely regulated popped up. I walked away from the table. I'm going to stay away from that. Claire Rogers Yeah. Daniel Mangena And yeah, I built up a life that I really loved. I loved my life. You know, I got to travel. I got to...because I didn't travel before. Claire Rogers How do you travel with a criminal record? Is that difficult? Daniel Mangena No, that's not difficult. Because it's not drugs, it's not terrorism, it's not violence, you know, I can pretty much go anywhere. These are the things that people really care about. And again, this helped me to see, "Oh, this isn't such a life sentence after all." Then I found out more people in my life that I knew and respected have been through trouble as well, when they were younger. I'd read Richard Branson's story, and that he'd actually got into trouble when he was about my age, he managed to get out of getting convicted. He was probably a nicer boy than me and he was probably more polite. Claire Rogers As well, I think, one of the stones, I can't remember which one of the Rolling Stones he ended up in Wandsworth prison as well, at some point like this. Daniel Mangena There's so many people. So many people and I also stopped judging myself. Then the shame started to dip. The shame still tries to get me sometimes. But it's actually having the, I don't want to say bravery. But it's kind of bravery, basically, to have these conversations and put these out into the world. To tell my story on a regular basis, to share about this has helped me overcome and still feel that, "They're going to judge me..." Claire Rogers Tell me where that comes from because I've actually interviewed a few people for my podcasts that have been to prison. I'm starting to think this might be the incarceration show. But actually, I've noticed the most remarkable people actually are the ones that have been to prison so far that I've been interviewing, because I think my perception is it can break you or you can become a brand-new human being on the other side. So, I personally don't have any judgement towards that at all because I just think, "Things happen," you know? Daniel Mangena One of the things I found, Claire, as well is that this has been a great way of deciding whether I even want people in my life or not. Because the fact of matter is this, if you look at my life up to 2008, there's nothing that supports the narrative of me being someone worthy of going to jail. If you look at everything since, even during and since, there's nothing to support it either. So, you've just got this one blip that's an anomaly. Claire Rogers And it shouldn't define your life. And it doesn't define you as a human being. Daniel Mangena It shouldn't define my life. It doesn't define and if people want to take that as the definition, especially once they've gotten to know me personally and want to take that definition, then, "Bye, Felicia." I don't really think that we should be around each other anyway. Claire Rogers Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. So how long have you been out of prison? Daniel Mangena Oh, God. What year is it now? Claire Rogers 2021. Daniel Mangena I think 10 years? It'd be 10 years this month. Claire Rogers So, tell me what your life has been like since you've been out. You went and got your call center job and so forth. But then you turn that into a seven figure a year.... tell me how you did that. If somebody was listening to this podcast, and maybe had a difficult background or doesn't know how to see their way or you know, see the light? Because they've got that shame and the guilt from the past? What advice would you give them to move forward? Daniel Mangena Everything for me came down to relationships, because at the end of the day, number one, I had polluted my mind with so much positivity. I changed my internal expectations; I changed my environment. So, the inner world created the space for me to actually create. If I hadn't had that internal change, I wouldn't have been able to do anything, because I would have still been trapped. As the past version of me; bitter, victim blaming. I had justification; I was screwed over. I did it, but it happened. So, you know, that's that. But being able to let go of that supported me being actually able to make the choices that were going to take me to where I've managed to get to. Ultimately, relationships, and solving problems. Solving problems and doing that within relationships and doing that nurturing and fostering and building relationships. That's because if it wasn't for the guy that gave me the chance, and said, "Hey, my company will white label the services for you to go out and sell this," because I've got this problem that I want to solve for people, this is what it's gonna take, you also want to know I can do it. "I know that this has happened but if you would just give me a chance." He'd be, "No, anything you need I've got you." And he helped, he created that opportunity because of the relationship. I mean, we'd had a nine-year relationship by that time; eight-year relationship. He'd helped me make our first million. Without him, I wouldn't have been able to do it. So, he was ready to give me that chance and to this day, you know, I still will always honor him. I still send him clients. I still respect him so much because he gave me a chance and that chance that he gave me would create the space for me to go out and build a business. I don't know if I would have been able to do that otherwise, who knows where I would have ended up. Claire Rogers So, if someone's listening to this podcast, and again, has gone to prison or had a dark blip in their past and they've got shame and guilt and trying to forge a way forward. Your advice is that they need to forge good relationships, but also, with themselves first, forge a positive mindset. So, I have done work on myself to forge a very positive mindset, but I have different methods to you. What is your method that you would recommend? If somebody you know doesn't have that natural inclination to know how to do that, what you would say they would do? Daniel Mangena Well, first and foremost, you have to want it. You have to want it or accidentally fall into it like I did. But you have to want it because at the end of the day, the person that you are today is going to fight against any change. Not because your mind is your enemy, but your mind is your friend and its job is to keep things the same. So, as you go out there and try to make changes, your mind is going to come in and say, "No, that's not what we do. You're going to self-sabotage. You're going to procrastinate; stuff isn't going to happen." So, you have to really be committed to the course. If you're not committed to the course, it's not gonna work. Because you're going to come up against yourself, you're going to come up against people saying that you're full of it. You're gonna come up against challenges. Without the leverage over yourself that comes from really wanting it, nothing's gonna change. Claire Rogers So, you say, "Work on yourself every single day." That's what I do for myself. Every single day. Daniel Mangena Multiple times a day. Remember, I was spending hours a day filling myself with positivity. I was in a very, very, very dark place. But I was spending hours and hours of the day, not for a couple of weeks. For years. Claire Rogers So, what do you do now to maintain a positive mindset? Because, in my experience, you know, I've got a very positive mindset. I've done some deep inner work on myself, but for me, personally, I believe it's a daily exercise. Whether it's first in the morning, I get up and I do my mastery where I'm reading books, and I'm studying or I go to meditate, or I run. Something every single day. It's because for me, your mind is like a muscle and if you don't exercise it goes. So, what do you do each day? Daniel Mangena How you start your day, I feel really sets the rhythm for the day. You know, especially when you've got deep built-in trauma or deep stuff, it can leak out in your dream space. All it takes is a trigger, like watching...I remember my sister suggested watching Orange Is The New Black, triggered the hell out of me. It triggered. I watched the first episode or something. So, curating your environment to support your movement forward as well. Setting yourself up for the win. Little things like; and this seems random but it's mainly; my guitar is very close to me where I am most of the day. Reason being now I've got no excuse. I'm removing the resistance to me getting up and having my daily practice. My journal right here. So, when I sit at my desk in the morning, my journals there to get it done. My phone goes on airplane mode and sits on the other side of the room so that I can't wake up in the morning and jump straight on social media and look at text messages before I've set myself up for the day. Curating your environment so that you're able to then get up, and you can consciously decide what your weather is going to be for the day. So, I get up, first thing that comes out of my mouth is I'm so pleased with it. So, I start that. So, I get the powerful, progressive, expansive narrative going straight away. That sets me up to go and do my morning prayers, to do my morning gratitude’s, to go and have my meditation, to do some breath work if I need to. Before my feet even touch the ground. So, I get that momentum going. Then if something does pop up, I'm at least somewhat resourced to have a stop gap before I get into addressing it. Claire Rogers Tell me something because I do this. I make this you know, I have basically two hours every morning that's Claire time. I don't look at the phone like that's me, mastering myself for the day. Quite a few people have said to me, I don't have time for that. So, what do you say to that argument of, "I don't have time for self-mastery.”? Daniel Mangena I mean, I've got a newborn. Right. So, I haven't had as much time, it's not always on my own terms. Now, sometimes, you know, the baby needs stuff. But it's recognizing that you can have minimum deliverables, or I call them minimum deliverables, like a minimum something that you can do. A minute or two of heart-go-hear-its, a minute of breathing can at least anchor you somewhat. A couple of words of gratitude for the things you're grateful for even like just sitting with an image of gratitude. That's five minutes. There's a woman called Kelly Howell that's got an app called Meditate Me, that's got a series of really powerful meditations that are 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes. They're free. There are other reasons too, like the calm app, and some of these other apps, 5 minutes. 5 minutes and you can carve it out. I mean, for me, I actually sprinkle my day with what I call check ins as part of the practices that I teach. Something called check ins. And what that means is that every few hours, I carve out little 10 to 15 minutes slots in my diary, these are carved out so that I stop and see how am I doing? How have I been since my last check in? Have I been up? Have I been down? Do I need to take a break? Do I need to go and get some fresh air? Do I need to go do a five-minute meditation? Do I need to go and do some star jumps to get my body moving? So, I've integrated that into my day. Is it always convenient to stop? No, sometimes I'm on a call, but my alarm goes off. And I can just stop inside. How's my heart, what's my breathing, what's my posture, and slow down. And then it becomes something that's a part of your experience rather than something you do and forget about over the course of your day. It's integrated into how you're actually living your life and then I bookend it with slowing down at the end of the day. Turning my phone off. Give myself time to slow down. Watching my mind movie, doing an evening journal and speaking about the day and things that I'm grateful for. Taking five minutes to slow down and have a little meditation, another 5-10 minutes. You can do it with 5-10 minutes in the morning, 5-10 minutes at night. And even if it's just like once during your lunch break just to stop for five seconds. Claire Rogers Or on your commute. Daniel Mangena Exactly. Claire Rogers You can find it, you know, take the earphones out, turn the music off, turn the alarms off the phone and just five minutes on a commute. You can find the time; you can find time. Daniel Mangena It may take longer. Or you can do...I mean, I've got an agreement with my wife that Saturday morning, I do get longer time. So, she watches the kids for like an hour or something on a Saturday morning so I've got dedicated time now that I can do my big dreaming and go through my 50 lists. You know, explore myself and anything I need to do. And we've got an agreement to make space for each other. So, for example, she gets to go to the gym in the mornings. I've changed my work day so that I'm watching the baby so she can go and do that. We make space to be able to do that. But again, that's curating the environment because who I'm with creates space for me to actually be able to make those choices. Claire Rogers Exactly. And that often makes it a healthy relationship as well because you're both being your best version of yourself by having that space. So, you've written a book as well. So, talk about your book and where our listeners can buy this book. Daniel Mangena You can head to my website, dreamerdan.com. There's a books page that's got some of the books that I've written. The main book that talks about this journey, this adventure, and the work that I do now that comes off the back of that is called 'Stepping Beyond Intention'. 'Stepping Beyond Intention', took 4 attempts to write because it's the book that I started writing when I was away but then realized that I was writing it for not such expansive reasons. And then try it again and try it again and finally got it to the place where it is now. Claire Rogers So, before we wrap up, what is the, not number one but the first tip you would give to someone who needs a push? You know they're in a dark place, trying to move forward and don't know how because you know we've all been in that dark place where you just can't see the wood for the trees. What would you say is your number one tip? Daniel Mangena Micro-shifting, which is a concept that I teach about. And what micro-shifting invites us to do is not try to take it all on at once. Just to ask yourself, "What step, no matter how small, can I make right now?" It may just be moving your body, it may just be changing your breathing, and you'll still be sad or depressed or angry. It may be standing up and getting some sun. It may be that you do have the space to go and do a five-minute meditation. Just whatever you can do, there is always something you can do, no matter how small, that's the minimum deliverable. So micro-shifting is consistently putting those steps together, to get closer. You may not get there every time. But you might get a 10th of the way this time, and then be sad for a couple of days and feel better. The next time you might get 20%. But it's just pushing that edge every time and asking yourself, "What can I do now?" You'll reach an edge and you'll say, "You know what, I can't I can't do any more right now. I'm still sad, but I feel a bit better." And just acknowledging yourself. So, taking those small steps and acknowledging the steps that you do make. That's what I would offer to anyone that's really, really stuck. Claire Rogers Fantastic. So, you know what? I'm going to buy your book, I'm going to read it, and will you come back? Daniel Mangena No, you're not, we're gonna send you a copy. Claire Rogers Oh, thank you. I want to read it because I'm very interested about this. I love this. I love the you've got a brilliant sense of humor, an English sense of humor, I love it. If I read your book; I'm going to read anyway; will you come back on the on the show and then I can pick out parts of your book, and we can talk about it more? Because I think you've got a lot of great stuff that you can share with my listeners. Daniel Mangena Definitely. Claire Rogers Yeah? Awesome. Cool. But thank you very much for joining Boot Camp for the Mind and Soul. And yeah, I'll have you back on. Daniel Mangena Great stuff. Claire Rogers Thank you. That concludes this week's episode of Boot Camp for the Mind and Soul. Don't forget to rate and review and subscribe. Tune back in next Wednesday for next week's episode. 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SUMMARY OF THE SHOW
Sonny Von Cleveland is a survivor of sexual abuse and also served 18 years in prison. And, he is living proof that anyone can turn their life around and forge a path forward to achieve anything you set your mind to. He believes we can all achieve success in life and change the world by working together and holding the rope. Sonny is a YouTube personality, a Motivational Speaker, Twitch gamer, Musician, and so much more. Through his music reactions and live streams to his talk shows and speaking events, he uses his platforms to involve individuals worldwide to see the beauty of life and inspire people to stretch themselves and live in their purpose. Today, Sonny is here to share his personal story and has graciously told me that he is an open book and that nothing is off-limits because his goal is to help people. TOPICS THAT I DISCUSS WITH SONNY:
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SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Claire Rogers I'm Claire Rogers, and you're listening to Boot Camp for the Mind and Soul, the podcast that gives you an inner workout. Before we get started, remember, just like in a gym where you may not be able to use all the equipment. Pick up what you can in this episode and leave behind what you can't. Your Inner workout starts now. Sonny Von Cleveland is a survivor of sexual abuse and also served 18 years in prison, and he's living proof that anyone can turn their life around and forge a path forward to achieve anything you set your mind to. He believes that we can all achieve success in life and change the world by working together and holding the rope. Sonny is a YouTube personality, a Motivational Speaker, Twitch gamer, Musician and so much more. Through his music reactions and live streams to his talk shows and speaking events, he uses his platform to involve individuals from around the world to see the beauty of life and inspires people to stretch themselves and live their purpose. Sonny is here with me today to share his personal story and has graciously told me that he is an open book, and that nothing is off limits, because his goal is to help people. Welcome to Boot Camp for the Mind & Soul Sonny, I've really been looking forward to this. Sonny Von Cleveland Thank you so much for having me. Claire Rogers Sonny, your life started down a tragic road at around age five when you were sexually molested. Can you tell me what was going on in your home life and how this appalling situation started? Sonny Von Cleveland Looking back on it, it was pretty much a typical family life at that point; I was from a single mom home; it was me and my brother and I look back to as early as I can remember when I was probably four or five years old. She was a single mom and we used to go to my Grandmother's house all the time. She lived pretty close in Michigan, we're in a small town in Michigan and we would all get together for every holiday - typical family thing, you know Thanksgiving, Christmas. We'd all go over and Grandmas there, Grandpa's there, Aunts and Uncles, Cousins and everybody comes together. It's a typical household. And we kind of grew up that way from as early as I can remember, but my Uncle was the first victimizer to start molesting me and I was five. And I remember being at Grandma's house for whatever holiday it was, and Uncle Mike has the Atari up in his room. So, I'd go upstairs because I wanted to play the Atari, and this is where he would take advantage of me. And then we'd come to find out he did it to a lot of our cousins, but over the course of time now - he victimized me for like five years, and there were three other men in those five years that all this happened. When I was 10 and it finally came out, I told my mother. My mother called the police and it shattered the entire family; there was no more get together's, there were no more... nothing. So, we lost all that and I want to say that it was even before I was 10 that that happened but I think it was around 10, and it just shattered the entire family. And a lot of people didn't want to believe it in the family, and this is why it shattered because people thought that we were lying - that I was lying. Until years later, several other cousins finally come forward, well Mike molested me too, he molested me too, he molested me too. Well, now we're all not lying. And people start to see that, but it totally destroyed the family. But other than that, it was very typical up to that point. Claire Rogers I'm guessing it destroyed you as well. Sonny Von Cleveland I just became a reclusive kid when it happened. After Mike and then after Tim Clinger who is one of my mother's friends, Darryl Hall who was one of my mother's boyfriends; after these men started to molest me, I started to think it was me. There's something about me so I would just be reclusive, and I was not very extroverted; I was a very introverted kid. Music was a big part of it, I would just listen to music a lot, and play in the woods. I felt like most men wanted to touch me or I was somehow sexually attractive. At five and six years old, a child should not be having the thoughts of I am sexually attractive. You know what I mean? You shouldn't be having these thoughts and wondering why these thoughts are happening. So, at the age of seven, I broke the law for the first time, and I had an interaction with police. And it was an attractive thing to me because here's grown men that don't want to hurt me. They want what's best for me. And so my life, then became - I'm an introverted kid who has this natural charisma and ability to entertain and make people laugh because I was goofy kid, I was funny, but at the same time, I'm introverted and the attention from the Law men and the Judges and the Prosecutors was so attractive to me that I just continued to break the law. So, this is my life. I don't have any friends, I'm a nerd, I'm an introverted kid that gets molested constantly, and during the whole time from 5 to 10 this happens all the time. This is a weekly occurrence for me because my mother doesn't know. We go over to her friend Tim's house; he takes me out back and molests me. We go home, Darrell is over, she leaves, Darrell molests me. I go to the other guy Roberts house; he molests me, and it became normal. I expected these things to happen. Claire Rogers And so, you started to break the law to get the attention of men that wouldn't hurt you. Is that right? Sonny Von Cleveland Yes. I fell in love with it because, here they are, the Judge, the Prosecutor, the Policeman - they don't want to touch me. And these are the guys that I know are right…they're just trying to discipline me. The problem is once the discipline is gone, once they arrest me or they take me to court or we leave the courtroom, they don't talk to me. So how do I get their attention? How do I talk to them so more? The only thing I know is to break the law again. And so, I did. A lot. And that's how I ended in most of the circumstances in my life. Claire Rogers Last time I talked to you, you said to me that you were sent to prison at 16, which to me as an outside observer sounds horrific because you're placing effectively a child in an adult situation during your formative years. Now I appreciate, perhaps there's a need for that sometimes, but as an outside observer, it doesn't make sense to me. Sonny Von Cleveland No, it doesn't make sense to me on any level. Claire Rogers I appreciate crime has to be mitigated; there has to be a form of punishment, but I don't understand putting a child with adult predators. I don't understand that. Sonny Von Cleveland Well, it shows the uncompassionate nature of the law. Some Judges and Prosecutors, they look at it as a job. They don't take the human existence into consideration when doing these things. For me, when I was 15 years old, I already had 10 or 12 felonies, on my record, and they’d never taken me away before. It was always a slap on the wrist, always, probation or some other crazy thing. So, when I'm 15 I stole some money from my High school. And the judge was finally sick of it and said you know what, I'm bounding you over to adult court because of the extensiveness, because by the numbers, by the books, they're allowed to do this. So, it went from trying to help a kid and trying to change a kid's life to, well this is what the book says that I can do so I'm going to do it because I'm just sick of dealing with you. So, he bound me over to adult court. When adult court see me, they see this extensive record and their like you're a lost cause kid based on your past, I don't even have anything to do except put you in prison. So, for stealing a pedal bike and breaking into a home and chipping my name into a wall and having a stolen cell phone, they sent me to prison for two to five years at 16 years old. Claire Rogers Sorry to interrupt you, but why again... maybe this is something bigger than me and I'm not informed enough but why don't they have a child psychologist, or somebody say well let's look at Sonny's life as a cumulative... what's happened... why is this kid doing this? Why is there no process for that? Sonny Von Cleveland These are the questions I look at now. I have a brother as well, an older brother who's 19 months older than me and when he was 12 or 13, I think they took him away. They put him in foster homes, juvenile detention facilities, and he was gone from the time I was 13 until I got out of prison at 21. But they never tried it with me... you may have been able to reach me and changed my life, had you tried some of these things. But they never did. It was just probation, probation, probation...next time... next time...next time. My mother always used to tell me, one of these times, the next time is going to be over, and they're really going to come at you, and she was right on that department. I don't to this day understand why. My mother was always there with me to see the lawyers and go to court, but she never advocated for any of these things. It's almost like she never even put up a fight. You know, and I was too young, my lawyers obviously didn't give a crap, they just never put up a fight. It's here, you're gonna plead guilty to this. This is what you're gonna do. Looking back on it now I don't understand why nobody stepped in and said hey, this kid.. something's going on with this kid; we need to get to a deeper problem here. And they just didn't, and then they put me in an adult prison, a level four facility. It's called Thumb Correctional Facility in Lapeer Michigan level four facility with murderers, rapists, drug dealers, gangbangers everything. And I had no choice. What are you going to do? Mom's not here. Nobody's here to help, they put you in the yard and they say good luck. Claire Rogers Which is horrific. so what happens? You're 16 years old, these are your formative years. How do you adapt because you don't have any positive role models (in prison)? Sonny Von Cleveland Right, I did not. I was a skinny white kid from the country. And I walked into quarantine and I almost shit my pants. I walk in, like, what is this? The only thing I know about prison are the movies that I've seen where Hollywood, does their best to either glorify it or make it look so violent and scary that both of them are way off the mark. And so, I come in and I'm like well I'm going to either be a victim or I'm going to be an apex predator, and I'm done being a victim in my life. I've been victimized my whole life. So, what's the worst you're going to do to me because pain doesn't bother me. I've been through more pain in my life, because of the molestations and the loneliness and the introversion. So physical pain doesn't bother me. Go ahead and whoop my ass but one thing I won't be is a victim. I'm not going to be that guy. And so I fell in with the gangbangers really hard because they have the sense of brotherhood and community in there where they watch each other's back, and as long as you're a stand up and violent dude, you're gonna fit in wonderfully with them so I took that route. And, I fell in with some gangbangers and they showed me the ropes of how to be really violent. I knew that I had to get a bunch of tattoos. And that was the sole purpose for my tattoos when I started getting tattoos at 16 was just so I didn't stand out like this skinny white kid victim. I just started putting tattoos on me and half of them had no meaning. I just wanted to get tattoos so that people thought that I looked (tough) because I was a big kid. I was 6ft 5 when I was 16. So, I started working out and I started fighting people. I became what was known as a shooter. So, I stabbed people for the gang. That was my go-to, and I learned how to just stop caring about everything, and all I wanted to do was impress the gang. I wanted them to be impressed by my ability; to see me not as a victim but as a predator. I wanted to be seen that way. I wanted to be feared. And because I thought that was what was going to propel me to success in life because that's what you're taught, when you're in here with gangbangers. It's not about who is the most motivational or who's the smartest or who's the wealthiest, it's about who runs the yard, who's the toughest dude out here. If they fear you when you walk out of that yard, you are successful in prison. And that's what I shot for. And the problem with that was, it's very easy to do. And then, I'm 21 years old at this point - I went through the five years it. I have been stabbed, fought gang fights, riots, it's craziness, and then they open the door and say, by the way, you're done. And let me go. Claire Rogers Yeah, go be a functioning human being now. Sonny Von Cleveland Right, no parole, no oversight, nothing. They give you $75, three condoms or like you're free. And I'm like, okay, I don't know anything else, I don't even know how to fill out an application. I don't know how to apply for a driver's license, I don't know how to do anything. So, I'm going to do what I already know how to do and that's be savage. So, I did. I started robbing people. Instantly I started hurting people. I started hurting people towards me because I'm very charismatic and I can draw people towards me, my leadership was always really good, so I mean I have the ability to build an army around me of people, and I did. And I then I went across the entire country I just started travelling all over the country causing chaos and wreaking havoc because I didn't care about anything. I had this goal in mind of being like the new Scarface or something. This is how twisted your mind gets when you have no direction and no leadership in your life. This is what I thought my goal in life was, was to be like a new mafia boss or something. I look back on this and think damn, that's twisted. Claire Rogers But I'm imagining, if you don't mind me interrupting, I'm imagining as well, joining gangs in prison I'm guessing would be just like in the outside world, perhaps is also a way of belonging to something. Sonny Von Cleveland 100%. 100%, and then you feel like you belong. The problem with it is, when in a gang, the loyalty and the community only last as long as you're providing something. The moment you stop providing something, they don't care anymore because it was never about family. It was never about community or any of that, it's just about the gang’s agenda. And I don't know about how the gangbang relationship works in the world because I've never been in a gang in the world. I didn't participate. Disenfranchised youth constantly go to gangs because of that community, that sense of family and brotherhood because they’re good at making you feel that. They're filling a void that you don't have in your life because human beings are naturally social people and especially when it comes to familial obligations, we love to be part of a family. And, so it was... it was bad. It was a train wreck and I mean I lasted 22 months, and we were robbing people and hurting people and I got caught again in Michigan and I ended up getting another sentence and they were like oh yeah yeah you're one of those guys and put me right back to prison when I was 23. And gave me a 12 year sentence this time. And I went back in. And it was comfortable. I'm comfortable here. I was never comfortable in the free world in those two years. I just always felt like a caveman, I always felt out of place while I was leading people and living this crazy life with drugs and sex and violence. I was still empty because I knew in my heart that this is not what life is about, but my mind was stuck in that mentality. And so, I'm still empty. And then when I go back to prison then I'm like okay I'm comfortable here, I know who I am, I have an identity, I have a place here. And then, that was a really rough time, because I'm back and now I have two kids. I got two women pregnant in those two years that I was out. And it starts to impact you a lot different. You know the recidivism rate is so high for repeat offenders. But the third time, the tertiary offenders are so low, because that second time, impacts you so much differently than the first time, because now you're like I did it, I was free, and I just lost it again. What an idiot. And then it really starts to impact you differently. But it still takes a while. The first seven years of that bit were rough. All gang banging, still violent, still just crazy, just ruthlessly running around. I ended up getting a long five year sentence in the hole behind a very violent altercation, which is solitary confinement, the hole, and it was the best thing that ever happened to me because I met a man named Mallory Bay, who was a Muslim man who was across the hall from me in the hole, and the man changed my life. Because he talked to me, he showed me what empathy was, he showed me what compassion is, show me what happiness truly is, how to have a purpose in life, how to let go of all the hurt and anger that you're facing in life and dealing with, and how to rebuild yourself because when you're absolutely alone, rock bottom, there's not one person in the world that gives a shit if you're alive or dead or hungry or cold or scared or tired nothing. There's nobody you can call, nobody's going to help you. You're absolutely alone. That is such a pivotal moment in somebody's life, because you have the choice of either letting it consume you or conquering it and building up to who you want to be. Being in that hole in that moment, nobody knows me. I have the ability right now to process and deal with everything in my life, and then start from a foundation of building myself who I want to be character wise, morals, everything you can build it from the bottom. So I started reading self-help books, like Mark Sanborn and Napoleon Hill, and you know these just great people that write books, the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, The L factor, Personality Traits, all these things that I started reading and he showed me, you can build whoever you want to be. Any human being has the ability at any moment to become whoever you want to be, because yesterday, doesn't mean anything. You can turn around right now. Take the five people that you idolize the most in your life and adopt their qualities. Just do that. And then you're gonna be that person. Claire Rogers He comes along, if he hadn't been there, would you have had that innate knowing or that gumption to know to do this? Sonny Von Cleveland I doubt it. I doubt it. Claire Rogers To a degree he is savior. Sonny Von Cleveland No Doubt. No doubt. 100%. I've been to the hole many, many, many times in my life and all I would do is sit there and yell at each other in the door, raise a fit, throw fit, get gassed.... Claire Rogers Can you describe the hole for me so just so I can imagine what that's like? Sonny Von Cleveland Yeah, it's usually a 9 by 10 cell that has a bunk in the back, a toilet over there, a mirror and a little window with a bar in the middle, and in the door there has another bar in the middle of the window that you see out in the hall. Claire Rogers Again, outside observer I've listened to that and again I appreciate that we have to prosecute crime and we have to punish, but I question, putting someone in that situation for five years. I don't understand how that rehabilitates anyone. Sonny Von Cleveland It doesn't. It doesn't. It's absolute savage. The penitentiary system is a) a cattle farm and b) a glorified babysitting job. It's all it is. The only time that the penitentiary is going to help you is if you take advantage of it. The programs are there, but you have to pursue it. There's nobody in there that's going to push you; nobody on the administrative side that's going to push you to do it. There's plenty of other inmates that will motivate you to take care of it and to change your life and take advantage of the programs that they offer, but if you don't do it, it's never going to happen. And the hole to me, it's like the babysitter putting a kid in a timeout. Claire Rogers Five years is a pretty frickin long time out. Sonny Von Cleveland Right. I was able to thankfully because of the help that Mallory Bay gave me, I started writing essays, because he told me you know writing things down is the best form of self-expression. So, I started writing these essays and I would shoot them over to him because this was the kind of the homework, he would give me. He was like man this is really good, I want to submit this up to the administration for the Special Activities Coordinator and maybe they'll, you know, share it with some other people. So, we started doing that and then several months afterwards The Special Activities Coordinator Director came in saw me and was like, I love the essays you've been writing. And then she brought to me this new program that they are instituting called Thinking for a Change and she asked me to learn the material, and would give me the opportunity to teach a class, and if I'm successful in teaching a class, she would help me get out of the hole early so I didn't have to do all five years. So, I did, and I went at it with absolute gusto. And I went and taught a class, it’s majorly successful, and she got me out of the hole. So, I only ended up doing 19 months in the hole, which is still a significant amount of time to be sitting in one room. Claire Rogers Are you ever allowed out of the room? Sonny Von Cleveland Very rarely. To go out and teach the class. You get out for a shower, three times a week; 15 minutes take a shower. They do offer, they have like these dog kennels that are out back that you have the option for an hour a day if you want to go and stand out there and walk in circles, you can, but they generally do it at like five in the morning, and it's freezing, and your like yeah, I'm not .I'm just not. So, I probably went a good 14 months without ever feeling the sun on my face. Claire Rogers No light in your eyes. No vitamin D... Sonny Von Cleveland I got the light from the window but just, no fresh air on my face, not being outside feeling wind on your face at all, I think it was like 14 months. Claire Rogers So, it sounds to me like you basically put yourself through your own therapy - you broke down your ego and rebuilt yourself back up again. But even doing all of that in that environment, how do you keep that positivity, of I'm going to change? because I'm imagining you're gonna have days that just absolutely suck. So how do you pull yourself out of darkness, and continue to see the light? Sonny Von Cleveland It got rough. I think it comes from self-love. It comes from self-awareness. When Mallory Bay broke me down to my absolute core base - I’m not a good person, I'm not a bad person. I'm just an existing human being. I now have the choice to either build a good person or a bad person, you have that option. You start to discover the self-love first, you start building the pieces of what makes me feel good, what brings me passion in my life. And when you discover those, then that propels you into what characteristics you want to take on to help other people to change others, how you want to interact with other people. And the first incidence of me writing that essay and seeing the impact it had on somebody else became a passion for me, because I suddenly had this desire to make somebody else feel good about their life. I looked at all the shit I had been through up to that point and said if I can make somebody else feel as good as Mallory Bay just made me feel about being who I am, that feels really good. That feels so much better than everything else I've ever done in my life. So, let me see if I can, it becomes a passion. Now I'm passionate about helping somebody else to overcome something they've been through in their life because you know I'm depressed and, and I hate my life, and I have suicidal thoughts, and it's like bro your life is so beautiful, so valuable. You have so much purpose and so much value in this world. If you look at how bad life can be, you would change your perspective. And so you help them to find out that life is not so damn terrible and get over that and when they have that moment of realization, when somebody sends you a message or send you an email or calls you and says dude you just saved my life. It's the most impactful thing I've ever felt in my life to save somebody else's life in Dublin. It changes you. It changes. Claire Rogers So, I want to know, again I'm using my words, so you tell me if I'm wrong or not, but you basically crush your ego and you build yourself back up again – They then let you out after 19 months, but back into prison or you're not out the door of the prison, you're back into prison. So how do you have that amazing, I'm gonna change my life mindset, and then go into that awful environment? how do you do that, and go back to gangbanging? How do you do that? Sonny Von Cleveland It’s absolute passion. In order to be somebody that can impact the world or somebody that can make a difference, you have to be authentic. Authenticism is the most appealing thing in the world. When you see somebody as authentic, it draws you to them. So, the only way I'm going to be able to reach millions of people and help millions of people in the world is to be authentic, they have to be drawn to me. And if I'm fake, then, we have natural things within our psyche that will block us from fake people. You'll see it, you'll smell it, you'll intuitively know it, and you won’t follow them. So, being authentic is the key to that and sticking to your guns is part of being authentic. So, when they released me from the hole, the very first thing I did was went to the gang like yo, I'm done. I know what that's going to entail. I know I'm going to have to get my ass kicked. I'll take that. But then I'm done. So, I took it. Except they didn't want to just do it once, so for the next year I was getting jumped several times a week, you know, constantly getting messed up, but I didn't, I didn't run away from it. I didn't shy away from it. And I think that just made them even more really wanted me to like try to break me, and I wouldn't break. And that's it. You just have to know that what you're doing is right. And you have to feel it, and it's a passion. It's like, the more angry you guys get at me, the more I know that what I'm doing is right because that's why you're so pissed off. That's why you're so mad, is because I'm holding up that mirror that we spoke about. I'm holding up that mirror and you're seeing what you're incapable of be, because you haven't figured it out. And so now you're going to attack me because you want me back on that side. You want me to keep validating your life by being part of what you're a part of. And I'm not going to do that. I'm validating my own life and my own existence by setting an example by sticking to my guns and holding my characteristics, because I'm going to show you how to be a better person, and people in prison don't like to be better people. They'd like to be the same people that they are - and that's not everybody, that's the majority, it's not for everybody, there are great people in there that figure things out but sometimes it's too late. But, like Mallory Bay was doing natural life in prison, he’d never get out, and he had no reason to help me other than an authentic passion to want to help change somebody's life. And so that stuck with me that resonated with me so hard with him, because like why do you want to help me, you have no reason to want to help, except for that authentic passion to want to make a difference in somebody else's life. So, I stuck to that gun. And it took a couple of years of back and forth in a really violent altercation with the leader of the gang, for them to finally leave me alone. But when they did that, I was then able to focus on everything that I had learned to teaching and helping everybody around me. So, I started and I'm very good friends with some of these inmates, the convicts that were in there with me. Some of them are my best friends to this day I see them frequently, we talk constantly, you'll see on my social media a lot like Mike Ruud, Brian Cornell, Jeremy Powell, these boys were there with me, and we walked through that together and to inspire them while we're here, we're in the shittiest place in the world. Let's be shining examples of what good people are, no matter what it says, no matter what we're at, we have this stigma that we're in prison, we're tattooed, we're rough looking, let's show them that we're still great people. And I just inspired everybody around me to do that. I mean we were, I always had 40 convicts doing yoga around the yard. And it's awesome. Like, there's a stigma that comes with that - gay people do yoga in prison, guess what? so do we. And we did it. I don't care what somebody is gonna think, there's always gonna be negative people, always going to be somebody that hates always if you're doing something positive you're always going to have somebody that hates you, always gonna have somebody that tells you you're doing something wrong you have an ego. You're conceited, you're narcissistic, you’re self-centered, they're always going to do it because you're holding up that mirror of what they want to be but don't have the balls to do it, because they're afraid people are so afraid of rejection. And that's like the biggest deterrent to people becoming their authentic self - they are afraid of rejection. I'm afraid my mother won't accept me, I'm afraid my friends won't like me. I'm afraid that my father, he'll reject what I'm trying to do. Rejection is like one of the biggest things that hold people back, especially in the digital age of social media, the dislike button has destroyed people's lives. Claire Rogers So, do you feel, I'm kind of jumping forward now, we'll go back, but do you feel, talking about rejection… Do you feel rejected now by society; do you feel as though people judge you? You know, hey this guy's been to prison. We need to reject him. Do you feel that coming off people or do you just live your authentic self and go hey I can't worry about what you think about me? Sonny Von Cleveland I feel that I don't give a shit. I don't care if you reject me or not. You can reject me all you want because it doesn't bother me. I don't know you; I don't know who you are. It does not bother me if you reject me. And even if I do know you and you reject me that's fine too. Because I'm gonna be alright. Trust me, I'm going to be okay. Claire Rogers You start being a positive role model in prison, then eventually you're released. What's life like when you're released? Sonny Von Cleveland It’s a little intimidating at first because I'm a caveman out here, and I still don't have a grasp. I've only been free for about four years - a little over four years and it's a lot to catch up on, especially technology and social media. I just went out and I started working, I got into a demolition company, and I started working hard, but my passion is music. That's always been, it's been a mainstay in my life since you know that introverted six year old who would hide in my mom's closet with her cassettes and listen to her music. Music has been the mainstay my whole life, and I knew I wanted to pursue music. I started learning a little bit of guitar at the end of my sentence, so I taught myself to play guitar and write music. So while I'm working on that , I'm networking with people out here that I meeting and put a band together and started playing music which really took off really well. It was really well received. But then there were pitfalls with that too… you know being that I had served most of my life in prison I've never had the temptation of drugs, rock and roll or women, or any of those things in my life so I fell susceptible to those things, because I'm not perfect, just because you learn things doesn't mean that you're perfect - which led to a lot of, you know, cheating on my ex, and doing a lot of drugs and just bad things. But the things that are fixable because the difference now is I'm able to see that I'm going down the wrong path and stop it and learn a lesson and say okay, don't do that, but do that. I can't talk to you about how to overcome something if I haven't done it. To me it's like the alcoholic who goes to listen to the kid who's 22 years old and has a degree from college and has never had a drink in his life, tell you how to not be an alcoholic anymore. To me, the connections not there so it doesn't work, you know. I mean like you're, if you've never been molested don't come talk to me about what it's like to be molested. I don't give a shit what degrees you have, you cannot empathize with it because nobody's ever molested you, so you just you don't get it. You may have a firm grasp, an understanding of what the book taught you, but you don't understand what's actually going on. So, I feel like I had to endure a lot of this stuff in order for me to be able to talk to people about it. And so maybe that was why I went through that and again every day is a learning process. Everything we go through is experienced and it's all learning. So, I went through that. I ended up with a really good job at Just in time staffing which is a staffing company. I had an office, I had a suit and I'm like, look, nothing can stop you in life. I've got 35 felonies on my record with 18 years in prison. My life was shit until I was 35, and I just landed a $100,000 gig in a corporate office. Claire Rogers Tell me how did you do that? Sonny Von Cleveland I walked in to get a job, and I was authentic with the owner. Claire Rogers It resonates. Sonny Von Cleveland It does resonate. It's like dude you're a motivational guy. I want to hire you to talk to people. And let's go. And then I paid attention and I grind, and I hustle, and I don't have any limitations for myself - I'm a fearless goal setter. I think that anything is accomplishable. Anything I want to do in this world I can do. If I put my focus into it, so you gave me the opportunity, I'm going to show you that you picked the right guy and I found myself headlong into it, and was successful at it and then COVID hit and destroyed all that. So, I can either lay down, I know that we have a global pandemic going on, let's lay down and just, you know, boohoo. Or, do what you always do. Get up, figure out a way to overcome and adapt. So, I started a YouTube channel. And if I saw a reactor named No Live Shack, and I watched him, I'm like, that is cool I'm entertained by this, and I can do that. I can do that. So, I sat down in front of a webcam and watch the music video. And it started to take off. And then I was just my authentic self, you're not going to put me in front of an audience, and I'm not, there's no circumstance where you'll put me in front of an audience, and I won't try to motivate somebody. I won't look and say, Okay, I know there's somebody in here that's unhappy with their life. Let me give you just a little bit of experienced knowledge of how to fix that. I mean, it's just, it's what I do, it's part of who I am, to try to motivate people. Claire Rogers And it definitely comes across. You're very passionate and very inspiring. Tell me, how you get to… I want to talk about two things 1) Do you get lonely now? So I'm imagining in prison, it's gonna be lonely, you're stuck in your own thoughts, even if you like yourself, I'm imagining it's a pretty tough situation to like yourself or not be lonely so I just want to know, how did you deal with that in prison and also, do you ever feel it now in the outside world? Sonny Von Cleveland Well, in prisoned you don't have a choice. You loneliness is just a thing. You don't have a choice. Some people have friends and family and, you know, they get mail, they get pictures, they get visitations and are wonderful things for those people that have that support. But I think being absolutely alone does something different to you. Like out here in the free world I have 1000s of fans all over the world. But I'm lonely. I'm alone and I'm learning for the first time to deal with loneliness here in the free world, I've never had to deal with that in my life, except when I was a child, and it's hard for me to try to recollect how I dealt with loneliness then because I would just run into the closet with the music. Can't do that out here, I got bills to pay, I have obligations I have to meet. I can't just run into a closet with my music, that doesn't work anymore. So, I pour myself out, I'm an open book. I am lonely, I will admit that. And I will come out and do a live stream, because I'm lonely. I want to interact with somebody, so I'll click on and do a live stream and now there's you know we got 50 people around the world right now let's rock out and jam music so I'm still going to the closet with the music. It's just the closet is actually very public and open and across the world. Claire Rogers I want to ask about loneliness in the sense, one of, how would you define it? Are you lonely because you just don't have people around you or is it that you can feel alone? Sonny Von Cleveland My loneliness is right being at home, because at the end of the day if I'm not on the camera, I'm generally just here at home with my kid, because I have a son who's three years old and we're kind of working out custody because our relationship didn't work out and it was recent - a couple months ago. And one of the bad things about being so social and so public is that people are going to report, everything that you do. So, if I go out to a party or if I go out to a bar, if I go out to a show, my ex hears about it almost immediately. And that puts her into a negative state of mind and affects the relationship. Our ability to communicate about our son, and in shared that communication, so I've come to find that now I have to be a hermit. I just have to block everybody out and not go anywhere and sit in my house because anything I do is going to get back to her which is going to affect the ability of me being able to see my son. And for the first time in my life and I get a lot of flak for it but like my two older sons they mean the world to me, I love them to death. My father sucked I didn't know who he was, I swore I'd never be that to them but then I went to prison for, you know, the first 12 years of their lives. And now I have a great relationship with my second son who's 16, we have a great relationship we talk a lot, we play video games together, he lives in Arizona, my older son who he calls my brother Dad because my brother had an affair with his mother and raised him basically, he and I have more of a rocky relationship because he already has that family structure and I'm kind of not there, and then he may see that I'm here with my family that I had here and we haven't really broke down that barrier yet but we'll get there and I'm trying. Roman is my three-year-old and I've been there every moment of his life. I was there the moment he was born, I held him. The first couple minutes he was out of the vagina. And there's a bond there; there's such a huge strong bond. I worship this kid. And so I will block everybody out if I have to in order to see him. Claire Rogers So, when you're at home on your own, do you like your own space? I personally like my own space. I I love to hang out with people, but it can be a bit sensory overload sometimes and I need to be on my own. Do you ever feel like that as well? Sonny Von Cleveland I do appreciate having time to myself, but I think I've had enough alone time to last me a lot of time. I like having company. I like being in the company of other people. I've been alone enough. So, I don't mind it being alone. So, when, when I'm here by myself, I don't really mind it. But then I would rather interact with somebody, for sure. Claire Rogers So how have you gotten to a place where you feel comfortable sharing your story? You know you've said to me very graciously before that you'll talk about anything and nothing's off limits. How did you get to that place? because I'm imagining some people are going to want to hide their past but you're like, no, let's talk so how do you get to that place of being open? Sonny Von Cleveland I no longer fear rejection. If you're going to reject me, I just don't care. I don't care. I know in my heart of hearts that there are people on this earth that have experienced the same thing I have, even worse, and are afraid to talk about or don't have somebody they can relate to that does talk about. It's not typical to see somebody that looks like me talking about being molested. I mean, a lot of people, especially boys - One in three boys are molested in their life. It's such a tragic number, and most of them don't talk about it because we have this societal stigma that we don't talk about. And it's not fair. And so, I'm going to be the guy that does talk about it, because at the end of the day, I've already been to the lowest loneliest point of my life. So if you don't like me because I wear my past on my sleeve, guess what, I've been lonely, your opinions not going to make me any lonelier. You're not going to do something to me by you rejecting me. It’s not going to make me any lonelier than I've ever been. So what do I have to lose? What do I have to lose by putting everything out there? What do I have to lose? What are you going to take? Claire Rogers So, it sounds to me like you've got a deep, deep sense of self love. You've gotten over your past, you've arrived at a place of forgiveness. Is that correct statement? Sonny Von Cleveland For sure. Claire Rogers So how do you get to a place of forgiveness? Sonny Von Cleveland You can't change anything. Anything that's already happened you cannot change it. It's already set in stone. So what is the point of of hurting over it? what is the point of giving it any more headspace? I don't know if it's so much forgiveness, as it's just letting it go. So, what's the point, what is the point of harboring that anger? because me being angry about it, sad, depressed, upset, it’s not going to change it, it's not going to go back into, oh well then that this didn't happen. It happened. You can't change it. So what's the point. I just I give it no headspace whatsoever. And I guess it's a form of forgiveness. Sure. If you want to say that and some people are so hung up on the word forgiveness that it's, I have to forgive myself but how do you define forgiving myself? How do I forgive myself? Because at the end of the day, it's just letting it go, you'll have people that want to hear the words, I forgive myself. But in its practical application, it's just letting it go. It's forgetting about. That's it. Just let it go. If you can't change it good or bad you can't change. Yesterday, does not exist. No such thing. Claire Rogers So, what do you do now to - I've done something similar to you where I worked on myself for almost two years, broke down my ego, rebuilt myself back up again. But I wasn't just instantly fixed. I find that it's a constant practice every day, I'm like okay is that an ego reaction or is that a natural reaction and so forth so I'm wondering what do you do now to keep your ego in check and make sure you're living what you preach. Sonny Von Cleveland It's legitimately just an awareness. I don't allow anything that just happened to affect me. And that's how I live. It's kind of a double-edged sword because it comes off as unempathetic and uncaring. It's sometimes looks conceited. It looks like a narcissist like you don't care. You don't have any feelings. And that's the double edge of it, they'll say oh well if you don't care about this because you don't care about anything because you're heartless and you're cold and blah blah blah. And that's clearly not the case because I wake up every day and I spend two hours of my life every day trying to help people. And I pay for it, financially, because it's not making any money. So that action in and of itself speaks so much more than words do. But it's just an awareness. You can't hold on to anything, good or bad; just be in that moment, relish that moment, if it's a tragedy, express it. If something's wrong, cry. Let it out, express that emotion, express how angry it makes you, express how hurt you are, express, whatever the emotion you're having, express it to its fullness, and then let it go. Because, five minutes from now things are going to be different. And you can move forward with your life. And if you're holding on to it, it's only going to make you regress from moving forward. You just gotta let it go. Claire Rogers So, I love that. So before we wrap up, I want to ask if you, if you were talking to young Sonny or somebody who's like you, a younger version of you, who is in that depths of despair and doesn't have a Mallory Bay person in their life, to give them that little kick to wake up, what would you say to them? how do they start? Sonny Von Cleveland Become self-aware. You know who you are and talk about it. Don't be afraid to say something. I think that being afraid to say something has been the absolute dumbest decision of my life. Not saying something. And that's why I say so much now, because not saying something enabled those other men to molest me when my Uncle Mike touched me. I should have immediately come down and said something immediately. And it would have prevented anybody else. My mother may have become an overbearing protective bear at that point. And I would have never been put in a position for other men to molest me. To express that when I got arrested, to say it to the police like I don't have a Dad and every other dude touches me. I don't want that. That in and of itself, saying something could have prevented a lot of it but at the end of the day, I would not go back and say anything to Sonny, because everything that I've been through is worth it. Every piece of hurt and tragedy in everything I've ever been through, it has been worth it to me, because I have helped so many people in their life. And if I had not gone through every single thing that I've ever gone through, I wouldn't be right here in this moment. And right here in this moment I'm happy as hell with my life, and I help people. So, to me it's worth it. I wouldn't change a thing about whatever has happened in my life, not one thing because everything has led me to here. Claire Rogers Beautiful. So, one more thing then because I love this, I could talk to you all day… Someone wants to change their life. They’ve had a shit background, whatever's happened to them, and they can't even see a way out of how to let it go, what tip would you say is the first step to learning how to just let it go? It's not about denying the past, but it's how do they, what's that little nugget they can start to move forward? Sonny Von Cleveland Lock yourself in a room for a few days and cry until you can't move. Let every emotion that you have out, let it go, hate yourself, cuss yourself out. Love yourself, make love to yourself, make yourself hate yourself, hate everybody around you and then love everybody around you, go through and work and process every emotion possible. Be honest with yourself, sit down in a room and just let it up, and record it, put your phone down and record it, go through that shit and be honest because you're the only person in that room, so express everything that hurts you, everything that makes you angry express it. Say it out loud. And then you'll understand that it doesn't affect you, it only affects you if you acknowledge it and give it that headspace to affect you. So, go into a room and write your own obituary from the perspective of five people that's closest to you. Your mother or your parents, your siblings, your kids, your coworkers and your friends. Write that down thoroughly and honestly - this is what these five people are going to say at your funeral once you're dead and gone. This is what they're going to say about you. And once you get that done, you will know exactly what you want to achieve in life, you'll know who you want to be. And you have a blueprint of goals to pursue in your life. Now all you got to do is make it happen. Claire Rogers Amazing. Sonny, thank you so much for joining Boot Camp for the Mind & Soul. You are so inspirational; I'm so glad you joined. To our listeners, if you want to connect with Sonny or learn more about him or find his social media channels, then please visit www.sonnyvoncleveland.com Sonny Von Cleveland Thank you so much Claire. Claire Rogers That concludes this week's episode of Boot Camp for the Mind & Soul. Don't forget to rate and review and subscribe. Tune back in next Wednesday for next week's episode. 
SUMMARY OF THE SHOW
Karen Andrea Campbell is a humanitarian and a storyteller for women inmates and author of the book Falling: Hard Lessons and the Redemption of the Woman Next Door. Karen lived the American Dream; she was a married mother with two daughters in high school, had a career as a physiotherapist and led an active outdoor lifestyle in Oregon. However, the dream changed into a nightmare when she was convicted of manslaughter for driving intoxicated, causing a fatal car crash which killed her husband and an innocent woman. She served six years in a full custody women’s prison. TOPICS THAT I DISCUSS WITH KAREN:
LIST OF RESOURCES AND CONTACT DETAILS MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE
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SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Claire Rogers I'm Claire Rogers, and you're listening to Boot Camp for the Mind & Soul. The podcast that gives you an inner workout. Before we get started, remember, just like in a gym, where you may not be able to use all the equipment, pick up what you can in this episode and leave behind what you can't. Your inner workout starts now. Claire Rogers Karen Andrea Campbell is a humanitarian and a storyteller for women inmates and the author of the book, Falling: Hard Lessons and the Redemption of the Woman Next Door. Karen lived the American dream. She was a married mother with two daughters in high school, had a career as a physiotherapist and led an active outdoor lifestyle in Oregon. However, the dream changed into a nightmare when she was convicted of manslaughter for driving intoxicated, causing a fatal car crash, which killed her husband, and an innocent woman. She served six years in a full custody women's prison. Having read Karen's book, which took me on a raw and emotional journey through guilt, the prison system and redemption, I reached out to Karen and asked her to join the show. Welcome, Karen and thank you for joining Boot Camp for the Mind & Soul. Karen Andrea Campbell Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Claire Rogers So Karen, I'd like to start by you walking us through the fateful day when your American dream turned into a nightmare. Karen Andrea Campbell Yes, it had been a beautiful spring day, I'd been skiing up on Mount Hood in Oregon. I was skiing with my husband, Tom. And he got tired. And he said, I'm going to go into town, and I'll meet you at the bar. And I wanted to stay out. And I took off skiing with a group of really good skiers, and there's a run from this beautiful lodge all the way down to town, which is 6.3 miles, which sounds like you have to be really good. The truth is, it's an easy run. But it's just long. And the spring skiing, if you're into skiing at all, gets warm in the sun. And suddenly you could be zooming along, and you hit this patch of what we call peanut butter which stops you in your tracks and hurts your quads. It's just really difficult. And that was what was happening to me. And I think I must have fallen 10 times. And it was one of those kinds of experiences. When you're so exhausted that you just lay there and cry. It's very difficult. I needed food and water. And I needed to get off the mountain. So I made it through finally and met up with Tom at the bar. And from here on out now, everything started coming to me in snapshots. My memory of that day is only in snapshots. And I walk into the bar and I have the snapshot of him in profile and all these people sitting around looking at him and kind of listening to him. And that's it, then it goes blank. And then my second snapshot of that day is there's a cold glass of wine coming toward me through people's hands and then blank again. And then the third and final snapshot I had of that day is Tom has loaded me into the car. And always the gentlemen, he is walking around the front to go to the driver's side. And I could see he's struggling. He's slipping, and I figured it was the ice. But by the time he got to the door, I realized he's drunk. And he was behind the wheel. And we started backing out and there was this rap on the door. And there was this little face in the window, and he rolled down the window and there was another Tom, a friend of ours from town peeking into the car and he said to us I want what you have. I want someone to love me. And Tom chuckled and started backing up. And my last vision of that day is we're backing up and I'm looking at this sweet face and he's waving standing under a streetlight and the snow is falling on him. And I wouldn't know that six months later, he would die of an aggressive brain tumor and Tom my husband would die that day on the way down the mountain. Somehow somewhere we switch drivers. Claire Rogers So, before Karen answers the next question, I want to mention to our listeners that due to Oregon State law we cannot discuss the details of the car accident. Which is why Karen won't be including that in her response to my next question. So with that said, Karen, can you share with me when and how you realized that you had been in a serious car accident, and how you learned that your husband and an innocent lady had been killed? Karen Andrea Campbell Yes, I was given the information by my family members because I was so tragically injured. I was life flighted from the scene. And I, to this day, I have no memory of that accident. But what I was told is that my family had arrived. And at the time, my daughters were 16 and 13 years old. And Haley, my youngest had said, Oh, Mom, you I couldn't stand it. You were broken and bloody and hooked up to lights and machines. And I, I fainted. And I struggled to kind of bring myself into the world. And I knew, I knew I was close to death. And I have, again, the snapshot images. I see through the bed rails; I could turn my head just a little. And I see the torsos of my daughters. And you can tell by their posture, that they're just bent in pain. And then again, blank. And later on, as I started to gain consciousness, it was my father who told me that Tom was dead. My daughter said all along, I kept signing with my hand, T o m, and I didn't know. At the time, when my father told me about Tom, he also told me about the other woman in another car who had died. And I begged God, I was raised secular, but I begged and pleaded, just please let my daughters not lose their mother. Claire Rogers So as you work tirelessly to recover your health, and my understanding from reading your book was that it was over the span of two years, you were at the same time navigating the legal system. The district attorney was pressing for a sentence of manslaughter; two charges to be brought against you, which would bring 10 years in prison for each victim, meaning you're looking at spending 20 years in prison. Can you walk me through this period of recovering your health while at the same time in parallel you are navigating the legal system? Karen Andrea Campbell Sure. I really was broken. It took a long time for me to get back to health. I broken over 20 bones, I ruptured my insides and punctured out a lung. And the doctors said, look, there's only so much we can do. This is as good as you're ever going to get perhaps. And I was walking with a big hip halo around me, like people when they break their neck, they have a big metal structure around them, I had one around my torso. And I just was worried I wouldn't even survive. But we went ahead with trying to negotiate - neither party, the woman in the other car, or my lawyers wanted to go to trial. And so we were going for an out of court settlement. And actually, there were there were charges of manslaughter I which would have been 10 years each, or manslaughter II , which would have been six years each, and there were the options of running them concurrently. So there was all sorts of different ways. I could have 20 years, I could have 10 years, I could have two sets of six years for 12 in total, and the least amount I could really do was six years, three months. So prison was inevitable, and it was just a matter of how long I would serve. And in our back and forth, what we learned and discovered why things were so difficult to negotiate is there was the wrong Karen Baker's criminal worksheet in my file. She was a hooker and a thief. And she had done all kinds of nefarious things, and this is who they thought I was. And I guess this was before facial recognition or whatever was going on during those times of identification. But they wouldn't believe me, and I had to go through a session with a criminal psychiatrist. And he kept on trying to trip me up to see if I was this Karen Baker - so when you were working the streets he’d ask. and I’d say this is not me. It followed me through my whole entire experience. But finally the victims and my lawyers agreed that I would do one six year three months sentence for both victims. Claire Rogers And how did you navigate that while at the same time your body is physically broken? I’m trying to understand - your body is physically broken; I'm imagining your mindset is also broken from what happened. And you're also in parallel trying to navigate the legal system. So, how did you? How do you have the strength to fix your physical body to move forward, but also have the physical and emotional strength to have those conversations to navigate that that legal process? Karen Andrea Campbell That's a good question. I think that I had two things going for me; it was eyes on the prize. I was a mother. And I had to survive. They needed me to. And the other is that I knew I'd go to prison. And so I had to get strong. And it was kind of like, you know, that scene from Forrest Gump where he's being chased by the kids. And he runs out of his braces, I had to too - I was losing time. And the fact is, is that I had to get strong and I had to be able to face a horrible experience and get as physically strong as I could. Claire Rogers So reading your book, am I correct in understanding the timeline of recovering your health was two years and then you went to prison? Is that correct? Karen Andrea Campbell Yeah, it was a little under that. It was more like a year and a half. Claire Rogers So did the negotiations take that year and a half? Or did they wait for you to physically get better to then send you to prison? Karen Andrea Campbell Oh, no, they would have sent me to prison with the big cage around me or whatever there was. No, they didn't care about my personal health, I would start my time in the infirmary if that was the case. Claire Rogers So you describe in your book that despite an agreement being reached through a pre-sentencing agreement, which would see you serve six years and three months rather than 20 years, at the last minute, and on the day of sentencing, the District Attorney decided to disregard this agreement and push for 20 years. The judge asked the victim's family what they thought was fair. And they pleaded for your clemency and said that six years was long enough for you to be without your children. You write in your book: Given the choice to punish, they chose compassion for my children and the entire family. I turned to see my daughter, sister, nephew, father and friends, embracing and crying with this family. I witnessed this family's grace and forgiveness. At that moment, I felt a shift deep in my being, down to myself, it was a sense of rising up. There was no other direction to go except toward a life worthy of their grace. It was the moment where everything stopped sliding downhill. Instead, there was a chance for all of us to move in another direction. Karen, what you wrote really moved me. The power of this family's grace and forgiveness was quite literally transformational for both you and your family. And my sense is that they actually arrived at forgiveness before you arrived at forgiveness for yourself. Can you walk me through how you felt in that moment when they chose compassion for you and how that changed you? Karen Andrea Campbell It is still unbelievable to me, their grace. And I was hoping somehow that this was the sign that they were beginning to heal. I was. I still think about them. I can't believe that they did it that way and their courage. I had done the math when we discovered that morning that I might get all 20 years. And my daughters would be 37 and 34 years old. And my father for sure would be dead. And you wonder if you would even still be a member of your family. Would you be like some nutty Aunt that you've got to send a card to every now and then. And so when they made that amazing gesture, I was so moved and so purpose driven. And I really just girded myself to just go forward and honor them. It is such a rare, rare thing that a victim actually gets to choose a sentence. And the fact that they did, made my sentence completely my duty and I had no trouble accepting and feeling that that punishment was fair and to get on with it and go serve. Claire Rogers Moving on, and you began the harsh introduction into prison life whereby you meet fellow inmates who begin to teach you the ropes. I actually found this a really interesting part of your book; can you describe this to our listeners? Karen Andrea Campbell With pleasure. You would never imagine my fear. The number one fear was the women - who are the women? And what did they do in there? And I figured murderers, and how do you separate the murderers from you know, say, the inmates with theft, crimes and things like that. And I just wondered if I would even survive them. And so I started researching who was in there by looking at books and Orange is the New Black hadn't been out yet. Although that's kind of a different experience, with a minimum, she did open a great door for people to understand what goes on. But there was men's books, and my goodness, Claire. They had descriptions of these perversions and shivs, and something called a fecal boomerang. And I, I didn't know what was coming. And so I was prepared for the worst. But what's really interesting is that maybe that fear is what drove me to stay motivated to, to just kind of keep my head down and keep moving. So that healthy fear that I had of the women, I didn't have to deal with it right away. When I first was incarcerated, I started in jail. And they put me in solitary because I still had a wrist splint on and I learned that well, they have to protect their property and you are now property of the state. So it wasn't like they were trying to make sure I was okay. And I understand now why solitary is inhumane. It makes you kind of crazy, the lights are on 24 hours; you don't know if it's morning or night. And if you get oatmeal, you even wonder if they're kind of messing with you. And the noises. Finally, I just took that wrist splint off and practiced a little speech, pacing back and forth in my little cell, what I'd say to the nurse to try to get out of there. And I said, well, I think the doctor said I could on this date, I could take this off. She looked at me like she couldn't care less. She said, alright, and we started walking toward the general population unit. And you could hear the sounds of the women and the voices from way down the hall. And we entered this long room. And it was like a hive. And all these women were walking back and forth and shouting at one another. And there was an unmistakable scent of unwashed women. And I was intimidated. And have looked it. I met three women right away. And I must look to them like Snow White, they probably thought oh boy, here come Snow White. Let's go over, keep her out of the forest. And the three I met were Tizzy, silver and Buzz Cut. And when I think of these heroes, I couldn't believe how kind they were they were generous to me. They were great. They grabbed my arm, and they said don't ever turn your back to the room. And from the beginning they schooled me in prison life. Everybody wants to know what you've done. That's the most important question you get asked when you get in there. And I told them there had been a car accident. And people had died and my children this and that. Tizzy just cut me off. And she just said, Look, don't think that you're any cleaner than the rest of us. You killed people. That's what people will say. They'll look you right in the eye. They might have hooked, and they might have, you know, stolen but they they'll say right to you: at least I didn't kill anybody. So the other inmate said just get over yourself. And I was shocked. And so Buzz Cut says, look, here's what you got to know. You got to learn your speech. I'm Karen. I'm here for manslaughter, DUI, gotten no good time, no programs. And that speech was devastating for me because all along I had called it an accident. I never called it manslaughter. It was a word I just wasn't even familiar with. But they held that mirror up to my face. And yet they stood by me. This was incredible. And we went together in a van, from jail to prison. And the night before, I can just see that Tizzy standing out in front by herself, and she shouts down, Hey. Look, Karen we will keep an eye on you. But if you fuck up, you're on your own. Claire Rogers Fascinating. You built friendships with a few of the inmates. And what struck me when I read your book is that there seemed to be a shared common humanity if you like, or a lack of judgement for each other's crimes. Can you talk me through some of these friendships and, how does that common humanity and lack of judgments become arrived at? Karen Andrea Campbell It's hard to figure out the common humanity when you're trying so hard to keep yourself separate, and you're not really into the culture yet. You're so concerned for your safety. Friendship is the furthest thing from your mind. And I was hoping that they'd put you know, the thieves with thieves and murderers with murderers. That’s not how works in there. You're just thrown into the soup. And over the long days, people start sharing their stories. And I was really amazed at how open these women were compared to me. Their stories of tragic childhoods and abuse was something they talked about. Easily they talked about their crime. And maybe that was because the crime was a matter of public record. But I really had empathy for them and was not surprised that they ended up in their situation. My very first one that I really had a great fondness with - I called her Celly. And Celly, she was a beautiful Latina, and she took pride in herself, and she could sing, and she could draw. And I was fascinated by her. And one day, I had been doing some laundry and I checked my wash and I realized that my pajamas were missing, which is the only decent piece of prison clothing I had. And I came back, and I told Celly, and said to her let me try this out. I think somebody jacked my jammies. And she rolled her eyes, of course. And she's slipping down the bunk, and the line movement, which means doors open, and she walked over to the washing machines. She was there for about 10 seconds, and she came and strolled back in and picked up her drawing again. And not moments later, there was a knock on the door and there was this snaggletooth young girl in front of me holding my pajamas. Here's your pajamas. So make sure you tell her. I picked up those pajamas from her and I walked over to Celly. And I stood there until she could feel me staring at her. And she looked up and I said, who are you? And she gave a backward nod of the head, it was magnificent. And she was my Celly. And there was nothing I wouldn't do to protect her and her stories. And that's just how things happened in there. These women and their vulnerability surprised me, and we got closer and closer. There was another who, was all strut for the show. And she had a tough, tough way of presenting herself, but I could see her hurt. We all were just laid bare underneath. And maybe that gave us some common humanity. But what I did learn from those wonderful women was that they were loveable. And I learned to love them. Way sooner than I ever learned to love myself. Claire Rogers So did you have to learn to check your judgement at the door? Or was that easy to let that go because you were already judging yourself for your own situation. Karen Andrea Campbell You mean regarding my safety around them? Or what they did? Claire Rogers I just try to imagine if I was in that same situation. The fear of crimes of what may have committed. Some of it, I'm guessing could have been premeditated, and so forth. I believe the natural reaction would be to judge someone. And it sounds like you didn't judge your fellow inmates. So how did you learn to drop those feelings of judgement? Or did you just not have judgement at all? towards anyone regardless of what they said they had done? Karen Andrea Campbell You know, most of what I learned I did not know in the early days. What I learned over my time, that if anybody had committed a heinous crime, there was probably domestic violence behind it. That's just the way women women's crimes are. I did not discriminate base on crime. There was an exception, most people did not do well with child crimes. They were in a separate category, and they were ostracized. But no, there was no sort of hierarchical friendship categories based on your crime. Claire Rogers Can you walk me through a few of the stories of your fellow inmates? I found that fascinating reading about some of them in your book. So can you share some of those stories and how learning some of the other inmates stories may have changed any preconceptions you've had about prisoners? Karen Andrea Campbell Yes, I can take you on a walk in our unit. And I'm staring up at this kind of this semi-circle of cells. There's two floors up and down and up. Walking along the row of cells, I'm going to tell you about three of them. I can hear the first woman in this little baby voice, irritating, just a really irritating voice. And that woman became pregnant at 9. And she just never matured. And she had a very difficult time making adult decisions. And as I'm walking past her door, I'm going down further. And this is where Mittens lives. And she was made to eat food out of a dog dish; she was held her down by the back of the neck by a male family member, because all women were bitches. And that girl became a fighter. And as we go further down, this is where the lifers live down in front of the one window. And I could walk you past about seven rooms of people who committed murder, with two in each. And of all those people, I can only think of one who was not a victim of domestic violence. And that's who were locking up. Claire Rogers I'd like to now segue to two other themes that were threaded throughout the book. The themes are guilt and forgiveness, which from my perception, reading your book, you seem to oscillate between the two. Can you talk to me about this? Karen Andrea Campbell I'll try, you know, I still struggle with forgiveness. I did something horrible, that cannot be undone. And every now and then there's this layer that reminds me that I have guilt. And self-forgiveness is not even something I deserve. It's a hard, it's a really hard process. But it's never more evident than when your daughter's come to visit you in a person. And that first time I saw Nikki in the visiting room, which is a chaotic scene, it's amazing, when you live in beige, and blue, and all of a sudden, you're in the colors of the free world, and you walk into this room, and there's all these people and faces. In the middle of it all, my daughter just rose - this tall beauty with blonde curls. And she was standing in the middle of all that with her hands tucked really close in front of her, like maybe she didn't want to touch anything. And I walked over to her and it was just agony and ecstasy at the same time. And we sat together and talked about inconsequential sort of topics and things. And it was just so painful. And so wonderful. Because for a moment, I was a mother again. And toward the end of the visit, she reached for my hands and I saw my hands on hers and I didn't even recognize them. They were red and raw from working in the kitchen. And she looked me in the eye and said, I forgive you. And we didn't talk, and we didn't cry. We just stared at one another and it was like this moment where I had peace and trust and faith that things were going to be okay. And it was just for a moment and this beautiful like vortex and we just held each other's hands. And it was something that you need to heal from something that deep. Claire Rogers So I remember reading in your book about you learning how to navigate guilt and your Zen group. Can you share that with us? Karen Andrea Campbell Oh, yes. You know, when you have a visit like that with your daughter, you best start looking inside just a little bit to start figuring something out, some sort of pathway. And I became a seeker. I went to anything they had in the chapel. I went to every religion they had and one of the groups was the Zen group. I saw it through the through the windows – it was a room where they had a meeting, and they were all sitting so peaceful. And I thought I want that peace and I want in that room. Because maybe if I can feel safe somewhere, I can begin to think about things. And so we always started in the group with a check in. And I chose that week to expose my experience with Nicki coming to visit and how guilt ridden I was. And I really sang about that. And the teacher looked at me and said, do you happen to know the literal meaning of remorse? I said, no, of course not. And she just held my gaze and she said, it means to bite again. And I want to read you two or three sentences here, because she says it's so well. She says conscious is as important as remorse. Together, it leads you to a new life instead of drowning and guilt. And she sat like this. And she said, if we're humble and contrite and atone for our errors, we can begin again, when our thinking is corrected, and so is our road. And I remember thinking, I have got to write this down, and I'm scrambling for my little scraps of paper and in my pockets, and I looked up, and there she is still staring at me. But now she's got a little playful mischievous look on her face. And she says, guilt is the ultimate arrogance. And it was like, she slapped me in the face. I kind of stared at the floor. And I started going through my mind. And I thought, my guilt me mine, I did this, I did that. Imagine people having to listen to that, and all that stuff. I mean, at first, I was mad for about three seconds. And then I looked at her and I said, I won't do anyone any good. If I'm stuck there. And you know, the sage nod. And I had a whiff of something that day, I knew that there would be a way to walk forward, somehow, some way. But right after that, what greats you as you walk out of that room is such hurt and such loneliness and isolation and uselessness. And you just pick that mantle back up again, of your shame. And this is who we are. And this is where I am. So it was a definitely a door opener. But it took many years to have anything really sink in to make any kind of change. Claire Rogers Tell me and our listeners about your visit from Tom. Karen Andrea Campbell Oh, well, I was in the midst and the grip of what I just described about guilt and the shame. And I didn't dare think of him. I really didn't, I was afraid one day that maybe the memories would return and maybe I'd remember the accident. And so maybe if I didn't remember him too much, I wouldn't fall apart while I was there. And I had been working with some religious groups and you know, my Zen people. And I thought, I've got to start looking at this. And so it was in the back of my mind. And I was thinking about all this as I was walking about how am I going to resolve this. And maybe that just putting it in my mind like that might had brought it up. But all of a sudden, there he is. He is he's standing in front of me on the prison yard. And he's in his funny old purple shirt, and he's got a ski pass around his neck. And he's looking at me and he's a little bit ticked, a little bit amused and he says, what are you doing? What are you doing? Don’t waste a day. I said You're not mad at me? He said get out there. I wouldn't waste a day. And then he was gone. And it was like this breeze. And that's exactly what he would have said to me. And that's exactly how he would have looked. And I know it sounds crazy, but it was real. It was. I could smell him and, and he talked to me in a way that I needed to hear that he was okay. And I could start maybe moving in another direction. And I went back into my cell and I opened up my tank drawer and in the back of a folder, I kept some pictures of him. And there he was, and, I started, from then on to shift and get over myself, I guess. Claire Rogers Beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. I want to segue. I think this personally is one of the most shocking statements I read in your book. It certainly shocked me because I hadn't thought about this myself. But you said that one of your fellow inmates had said to you, life as an inmate is filled with unknown deprivation, the average person has no idea to deny a person the sun or the night sky is cruel and inhumane punishment. And you wrote of that exchange, I will never look at the night sky again, without remembering when I could not. The other day, I looked at the night sky and this beautiful red gorgeous sunset, on the River Thames in London, and your words from your book circle back to me, and I mentioned your quote to my husband, and I said, you know what? we need to look at the sunrise and the sunset for the people who cannot, we need to look at the moon for the people who cannot and the stars for those that cannot. And that's actually something that I will take forward from your book - to remember that there are people locked up, who are locked up because of their personal tragedy or tragedies that have actually occurred. I know there's a different category for people who have done premeditated things, and so forth. But there's a lot of people in prison for a variety of reasons - perhaps they weren't even born into a chance or needs must. I'm not condoning, I'm just saying we have to as a society, I guess think about how we want to deal with tragedy and how we want to deal with people who are not born with any opportunities. And it leads me on to critical yet important subject, which is prison reform. Neither one of us are well versed to have an articulate and meaningful conversation about it, so I'll leave it there unless you do have an opinion you want to share. But my impression reading your book is that there were a few key Department of Corrections staff who were instrumental in helping you transition from being an inmate to being released and reading your book. They seem to actually lead you to think about a path forward, which to me speaks to a bit of prison reform. So I was wondering if you could kind of share those experiences with me? Karen Andrea Campbell Yes, I'd be happy to talk about that, like you said, we're not good with prison reform. And there was no prison reform for me when I was in there unless you took your own initiative, and sought out different ways, you know, reading books, whatever. But one of the great sources for me was the staff, which was at the heart of the reform that you seek for yourself. Also, I never forget the victims, who helped me. And I do believe my sentence is fair, and they needed some justification for the crime that happened. And for me to do that sentence, and if that means that I am locked up for a while, and that makes peace for others, then that's what needs to happen. Where we have the trouble is, we lock up people and don’t tell them how to change. We don't give them ideas about maybe taking atonement or, you know, inventory or things like that. And so I tried to do that kind of work. And especially with the staff members, I found a couple that were so helpful. And it just takes one of them to see you as a human being. And your experience becomes more bearable. You are motivated, to be a better person. And to come out of there, the least you could do is leave prison a better person than when you went in despite all odds. And there was one there was two fellows that I would point to and the first one is called Big Buck. Big Buck was my maintenance boss. Huge, enormous cowboy of a fellow and what he did was astonishing. He looked you in the eye with a bullet stick and he would spend time with us every morning and every night, kind of like a Zen check in. He never preached, he never told us what to do. He just asked us questions. Like one of the things he might say is, so how's everybody's budget? who's got a bank account on the outside? and he’d go around the table, simply just staring at each individual, never asking them to speak, just letting them talk, letting them think their way through starting to problem solve things like that. And he was the only one who did that, while I was there. That was the only so called reform that the group of women were lucky enough to get. And I wish there was a way maybe he can get this book in his hands. I just wish there was a way I could thank him. There was another one, the Captain. And he was rumored to be a very fair man, a good man. And one night, we had a blizzard, and the snow was coming down. And I was lucky enough to be able to go out and shovel to make the sidewalk safe. And he and I were on a team together. And we got to work. It was coming down heavy. And it was it was astonishing to me that he just turned around and started working and had no thoughts whatsoever that I could take the shovel and brain him. He just went right to work. And we were working along, and he said, you know, you are doing a good job here, Baker which was my married name at that time. And I said well yeah, I'm from Minnesota. He says, well, you you've done a good job to get this, they don't give this job out to just anybody. And I said, and I’m a little indignant. So you know, I've had good jobs before, I paid taxes and, you know, had medical insurance. And he stopped working, I can picture it. It was not unsimilar to Tom in the snow on the last night of my memory of the accident, I can just see this Captain standing there saying, you know, I've got a good job too. And he said, I've got to follow the rules, Baker, you know, I've got to pay taxes, I've got to drive 55. That's just the way life is. And I've made peace with that. And I want to live in this country. So that's what I do. And I wake up in the morning, and I do it every day. And I thought it's just that simple. Could someone just please say this to us, you know. And I watched him walk away and snow just falling on his bald head. And he really inspired me. Just that gentle, positive path forward. Claire Rogers It sounds to me like he recognized your humanity. There was a common humanity there. Karen Andrea Campbell I was so touched, I was so touched that someone - it's kind of like, being the freshman and the senior gives you a nod. I know that trivializes it. But you do become more childlike there because you're not really allowed to think for yourself or take initiatives on things. And so when someone of authority, or a higher up recognizes you in some way, it's really something and it does inspire you. Claire Rogers So what would you say to someone who's listening to this conversation? Who may struggle with the idea of prison reform? Or perhaps has even been a victim of crime in the past, and so would find listening to our conversation uncomfortable and perhaps would even go so far as to say that prisoners get what they deserve? What would your response be to that? Karen Andrea Campbell Well, you know, I think what we have to do is, we have to go forward with something called restorative justice. And that way the victims are heard. I'm not an expert at it, but I do know it starts with repairing the harm that was done in the first place. And the offender to take responsibility for things even before they have a chance to re integrate. And there are people I hope are working on it right now. But it's, I think everybody's entitled to have anger if they've been harmed. And remorse is appropriate if you have offended and we just needed find a way though. I don't know. I fully don't know. I really don't know. Claire Rogers No - I think the answer of I don't know is good. Karen Andrea Campbell All I can tell you is what happened to me when I was there, there was no parole prep classes. By rejoining society, you got a handful of condoms, you got your medical record, you got a bus pass and a $50 grocery card. And then they asked you one question, and they said, how are you getting off the property, are you're going to take a bus, or do you have a ride? because they didn't want you to be their responsibility anymore. So needless to say, we have a long way to go to have some sort of solution and prison reform. Claire Rogers So prior to this experience, did you have any thoughts on prisoners and prison reform? Or did you never think about it before? Or how have those perceptions changed? Karen Andrea Campbell A prisoner to me is someone I would have never met. A prisoner to me would have been someone dark and terrifying. And probably dishonest. I to this day of respect, especially in this time of craziness, have respect for the law enforcement people in my town. And if there's something that happens at my home, and I need their protection, I wouldn't hesitate to call. I think that they go above and beyond as first responders. I have all the respect in the world for those people. And I would have seen inmates as less desirables. I didn't know, I really had no idea. And I don't think I was a very compassionate person before I went to prison. I'm sure that prison taught me the compassion I needed in order to be just a better human being. If you can believe it, I became a better human being and citizen by being a prisoner. Claire Rogers I'd like to touch on that what you just said. So looking at your journey, in its entirety, from guilt, to forgiveness to redemption, you say that it's changed you in the fact that you become more compassionate. How else has it changed your life since being released? Karen Andrea Campbell You know, I'd like to answer that question, Claire, in a way that's relatable to your Boot Camp for the mind & Soul and anybody who's a seeker. You think about a prison experience as something unrelatable, kind of fantastic, and something that will never happen to you. But, I mean, is it really that different? And I think about all the people out there who build their own walls around themselves, keep people out to keep themselves in, maybe they hoard, maybe they overeat, you know, maybe they are a victim of sexual or domestic abuse, and there's great shame. It takes purposeful study and behavior changes to look forward, and to maybe get counselling to make an attempt. But it's horribly, horribly hard. And that's why it took me nine years to write that book. I just could only go so deep; it was just too devastating to admit all the pain that was inside of me. And with each revision, I would just go deeper, and another layer of deeper and there were times when I would just be weeping, typing it the book, and I just had to take those layers off slowly and slowly. And I noticed that I would feed my shame. I would purposely self-isolate and keep myself away from people. Because I had this horrible secret about myself. I was back to work again. And I wasn't allowed to talk about my crime and be open about it. So I never made friends because I was afraid, they'd find out one day and all this secretiveness would make me a false person. And so that was a really difficult path upward. When you are isolated, and you're self-isolated, and you talk yourself into that, I had not really forgiven myself, I just wrote about it. But I hadn't done the deep work, I was too afraid still. And I was sick and tired of writing the book. I wanted it over Claire, I wanted to just be a normal person. And there was a day that I'd written the end, but I didn't like it. And I remember, there was a thought of how to end the book, and it started coming at me, I didn't know what shape it was taking it was, Oh, it was so dark. And I never said it out loud. The prison was really, really bad. I was just so freaked out. But that's what I said. I said, it was really bad. And I remember I had to hang on to the desk, I almost fell over. And I said, I'm damaged. And yet something shifted. And kind of like that scene where Tom appeared to me on the prison yard. My young self-appeared to me. And oh, my goodness, I was such a cocky child, Claire, I had these long, skinny legs. And that day, I was wearing plaid pants. And my hair was curly mess. And I was holding Winnie the Pooh far past the time when any kids should be carrying that thing around. And I just thought, she's good. And she's still in me. And maybe, maybe damage happened to me, maybe that was a horrible experience, and horrible for the victims and my family. But I am not a damaged person in my essence. And I needed to sink all the way down. Just so I could see my way forward and find a way to finish that damn book. And that's what I did. Claire Rogers So if people were to read your book, what's the one thing you would want them to take away from it? Karen Andrea Campbell I've thought about this so many times. And there's only one answer for me. I was put in a place to listen to stories. And I wrote them all down. I never could have done that. Without doing that. I had scraps of paper all over my floor. And my golden retriever used to put her paw on one slip, like, let's talk about mittens. And I had this precious gift of the stories. And when I wrote about them, I could see them and wondered how they were doing. And if people could read this book and see them the way I saw them. That is my job. I have to humanize these people. And that is the step that comes first in any sort of discussions about prison reform. Who are they? Can we see them as a human being? And then I think I would punt it to people who are smart and understand who could work with laws and things like that. It is my job to write those stories and tell the stories. Claire Rogers I think that's a great way to end. Karen. Thank you for joining Boot Camp for the Mind & Soul. I very much appreciate you and our discussion. Karen Andrea Campbell Thank you. Claire Rogers You can purchase Karen Campbell's book Falling: Hard Lessons and the Redemption of the Woman Next Doorthrough Amazon. And you can learn more about Karen by visiting her website, https://www.karencampbellwrites.com I personally highly recommend Karen's book. It is raw, emotional, authentic and informative and opens the door to challenge our views on both forgiveness as well as the prison system. That concludes this week's episode of Boot Camp for the Mind & Soul. Don't forget to rate and review and subscribe. Tune back in next Wednesday for next week's episode. If you have any questions about this episode or anything about the podcast, then don't forget to visit https://www.itopiacoaching.com |
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