SUMMARY OF THE SHOW
Karen Andrea Campbell is a humanitarian and a storyteller for women inmates and author of the book Falling: Hard Lessons and the Redemption of the Woman Next Door. Karen lived the American Dream; she was a married mother with two daughters in high school, had a career as a physiotherapist and led an active outdoor lifestyle in Oregon. However, the dream changed into a nightmare when she was convicted of manslaughter for driving intoxicated, causing a fatal car crash which killed her husband and an innocent woman. She served six years in a full custody women’s prison. TOPICS THAT I DISCUSS WITH KAREN:
LIST OF RESOURCES AND CONTACT DETAILS MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE
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SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Claire Rogers I'm Claire Rogers, and you're listening to Boot Camp for the Mind & Soul. The podcast that gives you an inner workout. Before we get started, remember, just like in a gym, where you may not be able to use all the equipment, pick up what you can in this episode and leave behind what you can't. Your inner workout starts now. Claire Rogers Karen Andrea Campbell is a humanitarian and a storyteller for women inmates and the author of the book, Falling: Hard Lessons and the Redemption of the Woman Next Door. Karen lived the American dream. She was a married mother with two daughters in high school, had a career as a physiotherapist and led an active outdoor lifestyle in Oregon. However, the dream changed into a nightmare when she was convicted of manslaughter for driving intoxicated, causing a fatal car crash, which killed her husband, and an innocent woman. She served six years in a full custody women's prison. Having read Karen's book, which took me on a raw and emotional journey through guilt, the prison system and redemption, I reached out to Karen and asked her to join the show. Welcome, Karen and thank you for joining Boot Camp for the Mind & Soul. Karen Andrea Campbell Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Claire Rogers So Karen, I'd like to start by you walking us through the fateful day when your American dream turned into a nightmare. Karen Andrea Campbell Yes, it had been a beautiful spring day, I'd been skiing up on Mount Hood in Oregon. I was skiing with my husband, Tom. And he got tired. And he said, I'm going to go into town, and I'll meet you at the bar. And I wanted to stay out. And I took off skiing with a group of really good skiers, and there's a run from this beautiful lodge all the way down to town, which is 6.3 miles, which sounds like you have to be really good. The truth is, it's an easy run. But it's just long. And the spring skiing, if you're into skiing at all, gets warm in the sun. And suddenly you could be zooming along, and you hit this patch of what we call peanut butter which stops you in your tracks and hurts your quads. It's just really difficult. And that was what was happening to me. And I think I must have fallen 10 times. And it was one of those kinds of experiences. When you're so exhausted that you just lay there and cry. It's very difficult. I needed food and water. And I needed to get off the mountain. So I made it through finally and met up with Tom at the bar. And from here on out now, everything started coming to me in snapshots. My memory of that day is only in snapshots. And I walk into the bar and I have the snapshot of him in profile and all these people sitting around looking at him and kind of listening to him. And that's it, then it goes blank. And then my second snapshot of that day is there's a cold glass of wine coming toward me through people's hands and then blank again. And then the third and final snapshot I had of that day is Tom has loaded me into the car. And always the gentlemen, he is walking around the front to go to the driver's side. And I could see he's struggling. He's slipping, and I figured it was the ice. But by the time he got to the door, I realized he's drunk. And he was behind the wheel. And we started backing out and there was this rap on the door. And there was this little face in the window, and he rolled down the window and there was another Tom, a friend of ours from town peeking into the car and he said to us I want what you have. I want someone to love me. And Tom chuckled and started backing up. And my last vision of that day is we're backing up and I'm looking at this sweet face and he's waving standing under a streetlight and the snow is falling on him. And I wouldn't know that six months later, he would die of an aggressive brain tumor and Tom my husband would die that day on the way down the mountain. Somehow somewhere we switch drivers. Claire Rogers So, before Karen answers the next question, I want to mention to our listeners that due to Oregon State law we cannot discuss the details of the car accident. Which is why Karen won't be including that in her response to my next question. So with that said, Karen, can you share with me when and how you realized that you had been in a serious car accident, and how you learned that your husband and an innocent lady had been killed? Karen Andrea Campbell Yes, I was given the information by my family members because I was so tragically injured. I was life flighted from the scene. And I, to this day, I have no memory of that accident. But what I was told is that my family had arrived. And at the time, my daughters were 16 and 13 years old. And Haley, my youngest had said, Oh, Mom, you I couldn't stand it. You were broken and bloody and hooked up to lights and machines. And I, I fainted. And I struggled to kind of bring myself into the world. And I knew, I knew I was close to death. And I have, again, the snapshot images. I see through the bed rails; I could turn my head just a little. And I see the torsos of my daughters. And you can tell by their posture, that they're just bent in pain. And then again, blank. And later on, as I started to gain consciousness, it was my father who told me that Tom was dead. My daughter said all along, I kept signing with my hand, T o m, and I didn't know. At the time, when my father told me about Tom, he also told me about the other woman in another car who had died. And I begged God, I was raised secular, but I begged and pleaded, just please let my daughters not lose their mother. Claire Rogers So as you work tirelessly to recover your health, and my understanding from reading your book was that it was over the span of two years, you were at the same time navigating the legal system. The district attorney was pressing for a sentence of manslaughter; two charges to be brought against you, which would bring 10 years in prison for each victim, meaning you're looking at spending 20 years in prison. Can you walk me through this period of recovering your health while at the same time in parallel you are navigating the legal system? Karen Andrea Campbell Sure. I really was broken. It took a long time for me to get back to health. I broken over 20 bones, I ruptured my insides and punctured out a lung. And the doctors said, look, there's only so much we can do. This is as good as you're ever going to get perhaps. And I was walking with a big hip halo around me, like people when they break their neck, they have a big metal structure around them, I had one around my torso. And I just was worried I wouldn't even survive. But we went ahead with trying to negotiate - neither party, the woman in the other car, or my lawyers wanted to go to trial. And so we were going for an out of court settlement. And actually, there were there were charges of manslaughter I which would have been 10 years each, or manslaughter II , which would have been six years each, and there were the options of running them concurrently. So there was all sorts of different ways. I could have 20 years, I could have 10 years, I could have two sets of six years for 12 in total, and the least amount I could really do was six years, three months. So prison was inevitable, and it was just a matter of how long I would serve. And in our back and forth, what we learned and discovered why things were so difficult to negotiate is there was the wrong Karen Baker's criminal worksheet in my file. She was a hooker and a thief. And she had done all kinds of nefarious things, and this is who they thought I was. And I guess this was before facial recognition or whatever was going on during those times of identification. But they wouldn't believe me, and I had to go through a session with a criminal psychiatrist. And he kept on trying to trip me up to see if I was this Karen Baker - so when you were working the streets he’d ask. and I’d say this is not me. It followed me through my whole entire experience. But finally the victims and my lawyers agreed that I would do one six year three months sentence for both victims. Claire Rogers And how did you navigate that while at the same time your body is physically broken? I’m trying to understand - your body is physically broken; I'm imagining your mindset is also broken from what happened. And you're also in parallel trying to navigate the legal system. So, how did you? How do you have the strength to fix your physical body to move forward, but also have the physical and emotional strength to have those conversations to navigate that that legal process? Karen Andrea Campbell That's a good question. I think that I had two things going for me; it was eyes on the prize. I was a mother. And I had to survive. They needed me to. And the other is that I knew I'd go to prison. And so I had to get strong. And it was kind of like, you know, that scene from Forrest Gump where he's being chased by the kids. And he runs out of his braces, I had to too - I was losing time. And the fact is, is that I had to get strong and I had to be able to face a horrible experience and get as physically strong as I could. Claire Rogers So reading your book, am I correct in understanding the timeline of recovering your health was two years and then you went to prison? Is that correct? Karen Andrea Campbell Yeah, it was a little under that. It was more like a year and a half. Claire Rogers So did the negotiations take that year and a half? Or did they wait for you to physically get better to then send you to prison? Karen Andrea Campbell Oh, no, they would have sent me to prison with the big cage around me or whatever there was. No, they didn't care about my personal health, I would start my time in the infirmary if that was the case. Claire Rogers So you describe in your book that despite an agreement being reached through a pre-sentencing agreement, which would see you serve six years and three months rather than 20 years, at the last minute, and on the day of sentencing, the District Attorney decided to disregard this agreement and push for 20 years. The judge asked the victim's family what they thought was fair. And they pleaded for your clemency and said that six years was long enough for you to be without your children. You write in your book: Given the choice to punish, they chose compassion for my children and the entire family. I turned to see my daughter, sister, nephew, father and friends, embracing and crying with this family. I witnessed this family's grace and forgiveness. At that moment, I felt a shift deep in my being, down to myself, it was a sense of rising up. There was no other direction to go except toward a life worthy of their grace. It was the moment where everything stopped sliding downhill. Instead, there was a chance for all of us to move in another direction. Karen, what you wrote really moved me. The power of this family's grace and forgiveness was quite literally transformational for both you and your family. And my sense is that they actually arrived at forgiveness before you arrived at forgiveness for yourself. Can you walk me through how you felt in that moment when they chose compassion for you and how that changed you? Karen Andrea Campbell It is still unbelievable to me, their grace. And I was hoping somehow that this was the sign that they were beginning to heal. I was. I still think about them. I can't believe that they did it that way and their courage. I had done the math when we discovered that morning that I might get all 20 years. And my daughters would be 37 and 34 years old. And my father for sure would be dead. And you wonder if you would even still be a member of your family. Would you be like some nutty Aunt that you've got to send a card to every now and then. And so when they made that amazing gesture, I was so moved and so purpose driven. And I really just girded myself to just go forward and honor them. It is such a rare, rare thing that a victim actually gets to choose a sentence. And the fact that they did, made my sentence completely my duty and I had no trouble accepting and feeling that that punishment was fair and to get on with it and go serve. Claire Rogers Moving on, and you began the harsh introduction into prison life whereby you meet fellow inmates who begin to teach you the ropes. I actually found this a really interesting part of your book; can you describe this to our listeners? Karen Andrea Campbell With pleasure. You would never imagine my fear. The number one fear was the women - who are the women? And what did they do in there? And I figured murderers, and how do you separate the murderers from you know, say, the inmates with theft, crimes and things like that. And I just wondered if I would even survive them. And so I started researching who was in there by looking at books and Orange is the New Black hadn't been out yet. Although that's kind of a different experience, with a minimum, she did open a great door for people to understand what goes on. But there was men's books, and my goodness, Claire. They had descriptions of these perversions and shivs, and something called a fecal boomerang. And I, I didn't know what was coming. And so I was prepared for the worst. But what's really interesting is that maybe that fear is what drove me to stay motivated to, to just kind of keep my head down and keep moving. So that healthy fear that I had of the women, I didn't have to deal with it right away. When I first was incarcerated, I started in jail. And they put me in solitary because I still had a wrist splint on and I learned that well, they have to protect their property and you are now property of the state. So it wasn't like they were trying to make sure I was okay. And I understand now why solitary is inhumane. It makes you kind of crazy, the lights are on 24 hours; you don't know if it's morning or night. And if you get oatmeal, you even wonder if they're kind of messing with you. And the noises. Finally, I just took that wrist splint off and practiced a little speech, pacing back and forth in my little cell, what I'd say to the nurse to try to get out of there. And I said, well, I think the doctor said I could on this date, I could take this off. She looked at me like she couldn't care less. She said, alright, and we started walking toward the general population unit. And you could hear the sounds of the women and the voices from way down the hall. And we entered this long room. And it was like a hive. And all these women were walking back and forth and shouting at one another. And there was an unmistakable scent of unwashed women. And I was intimidated. And have looked it. I met three women right away. And I must look to them like Snow White, they probably thought oh boy, here come Snow White. Let's go over, keep her out of the forest. And the three I met were Tizzy, silver and Buzz Cut. And when I think of these heroes, I couldn't believe how kind they were they were generous to me. They were great. They grabbed my arm, and they said don't ever turn your back to the room. And from the beginning they schooled me in prison life. Everybody wants to know what you've done. That's the most important question you get asked when you get in there. And I told them there had been a car accident. And people had died and my children this and that. Tizzy just cut me off. And she just said, Look, don't think that you're any cleaner than the rest of us. You killed people. That's what people will say. They'll look you right in the eye. They might have hooked, and they might have, you know, stolen but they they'll say right to you: at least I didn't kill anybody. So the other inmate said just get over yourself. And I was shocked. And so Buzz Cut says, look, here's what you got to know. You got to learn your speech. I'm Karen. I'm here for manslaughter, DUI, gotten no good time, no programs. And that speech was devastating for me because all along I had called it an accident. I never called it manslaughter. It was a word I just wasn't even familiar with. But they held that mirror up to my face. And yet they stood by me. This was incredible. And we went together in a van, from jail to prison. And the night before, I can just see that Tizzy standing out in front by herself, and she shouts down, Hey. Look, Karen we will keep an eye on you. But if you fuck up, you're on your own. Claire Rogers Fascinating. You built friendships with a few of the inmates. And what struck me when I read your book is that there seemed to be a shared common humanity if you like, or a lack of judgement for each other's crimes. Can you talk me through some of these friendships and, how does that common humanity and lack of judgments become arrived at? Karen Andrea Campbell It's hard to figure out the common humanity when you're trying so hard to keep yourself separate, and you're not really into the culture yet. You're so concerned for your safety. Friendship is the furthest thing from your mind. And I was hoping that they'd put you know, the thieves with thieves and murderers with murderers. That’s not how works in there. You're just thrown into the soup. And over the long days, people start sharing their stories. And I was really amazed at how open these women were compared to me. Their stories of tragic childhoods and abuse was something they talked about. Easily they talked about their crime. And maybe that was because the crime was a matter of public record. But I really had empathy for them and was not surprised that they ended up in their situation. My very first one that I really had a great fondness with - I called her Celly. And Celly, she was a beautiful Latina, and she took pride in herself, and she could sing, and she could draw. And I was fascinated by her. And one day, I had been doing some laundry and I checked my wash and I realized that my pajamas were missing, which is the only decent piece of prison clothing I had. And I came back, and I told Celly, and said to her let me try this out. I think somebody jacked my jammies. And she rolled her eyes, of course. And she's slipping down the bunk, and the line movement, which means doors open, and she walked over to the washing machines. She was there for about 10 seconds, and she came and strolled back in and picked up her drawing again. And not moments later, there was a knock on the door and there was this snaggletooth young girl in front of me holding my pajamas. Here's your pajamas. So make sure you tell her. I picked up those pajamas from her and I walked over to Celly. And I stood there until she could feel me staring at her. And she looked up and I said, who are you? And she gave a backward nod of the head, it was magnificent. And she was my Celly. And there was nothing I wouldn't do to protect her and her stories. And that's just how things happened in there. These women and their vulnerability surprised me, and we got closer and closer. There was another who, was all strut for the show. And she had a tough, tough way of presenting herself, but I could see her hurt. We all were just laid bare underneath. And maybe that gave us some common humanity. But what I did learn from those wonderful women was that they were loveable. And I learned to love them. Way sooner than I ever learned to love myself. Claire Rogers So did you have to learn to check your judgement at the door? Or was that easy to let that go because you were already judging yourself for your own situation. Karen Andrea Campbell You mean regarding my safety around them? Or what they did? Claire Rogers I just try to imagine if I was in that same situation. The fear of crimes of what may have committed. Some of it, I'm guessing could have been premeditated, and so forth. I believe the natural reaction would be to judge someone. And it sounds like you didn't judge your fellow inmates. So how did you learn to drop those feelings of judgement? Or did you just not have judgement at all? towards anyone regardless of what they said they had done? Karen Andrea Campbell You know, most of what I learned I did not know in the early days. What I learned over my time, that if anybody had committed a heinous crime, there was probably domestic violence behind it. That's just the way women women's crimes are. I did not discriminate base on crime. There was an exception, most people did not do well with child crimes. They were in a separate category, and they were ostracized. But no, there was no sort of hierarchical friendship categories based on your crime. Claire Rogers Can you walk me through a few of the stories of your fellow inmates? I found that fascinating reading about some of them in your book. So can you share some of those stories and how learning some of the other inmates stories may have changed any preconceptions you've had about prisoners? Karen Andrea Campbell Yes, I can take you on a walk in our unit. And I'm staring up at this kind of this semi-circle of cells. There's two floors up and down and up. Walking along the row of cells, I'm going to tell you about three of them. I can hear the first woman in this little baby voice, irritating, just a really irritating voice. And that woman became pregnant at 9. And she just never matured. And she had a very difficult time making adult decisions. And as I'm walking past her door, I'm going down further. And this is where Mittens lives. And she was made to eat food out of a dog dish; she was held her down by the back of the neck by a male family member, because all women were bitches. And that girl became a fighter. And as we go further down, this is where the lifers live down in front of the one window. And I could walk you past about seven rooms of people who committed murder, with two in each. And of all those people, I can only think of one who was not a victim of domestic violence. And that's who were locking up. Claire Rogers I'd like to now segue to two other themes that were threaded throughout the book. The themes are guilt and forgiveness, which from my perception, reading your book, you seem to oscillate between the two. Can you talk to me about this? Karen Andrea Campbell I'll try, you know, I still struggle with forgiveness. I did something horrible, that cannot be undone. And every now and then there's this layer that reminds me that I have guilt. And self-forgiveness is not even something I deserve. It's a hard, it's a really hard process. But it's never more evident than when your daughter's come to visit you in a person. And that first time I saw Nikki in the visiting room, which is a chaotic scene, it's amazing, when you live in beige, and blue, and all of a sudden, you're in the colors of the free world, and you walk into this room, and there's all these people and faces. In the middle of it all, my daughter just rose - this tall beauty with blonde curls. And she was standing in the middle of all that with her hands tucked really close in front of her, like maybe she didn't want to touch anything. And I walked over to her and it was just agony and ecstasy at the same time. And we sat together and talked about inconsequential sort of topics and things. And it was just so painful. And so wonderful. Because for a moment, I was a mother again. And toward the end of the visit, she reached for my hands and I saw my hands on hers and I didn't even recognize them. They were red and raw from working in the kitchen. And she looked me in the eye and said, I forgive you. And we didn't talk, and we didn't cry. We just stared at one another and it was like this moment where I had peace and trust and faith that things were going to be okay. And it was just for a moment and this beautiful like vortex and we just held each other's hands. And it was something that you need to heal from something that deep. Claire Rogers So I remember reading in your book about you learning how to navigate guilt and your Zen group. Can you share that with us? Karen Andrea Campbell Oh, yes. You know, when you have a visit like that with your daughter, you best start looking inside just a little bit to start figuring something out, some sort of pathway. And I became a seeker. I went to anything they had in the chapel. I went to every religion they had and one of the groups was the Zen group. I saw it through the through the windows – it was a room where they had a meeting, and they were all sitting so peaceful. And I thought I want that peace and I want in that room. Because maybe if I can feel safe somewhere, I can begin to think about things. And so we always started in the group with a check in. And I chose that week to expose my experience with Nicki coming to visit and how guilt ridden I was. And I really sang about that. And the teacher looked at me and said, do you happen to know the literal meaning of remorse? I said, no, of course not. And she just held my gaze and she said, it means to bite again. And I want to read you two or three sentences here, because she says it's so well. She says conscious is as important as remorse. Together, it leads you to a new life instead of drowning and guilt. And she sat like this. And she said, if we're humble and contrite and atone for our errors, we can begin again, when our thinking is corrected, and so is our road. And I remember thinking, I have got to write this down, and I'm scrambling for my little scraps of paper and in my pockets, and I looked up, and there she is still staring at me. But now she's got a little playful mischievous look on her face. And she says, guilt is the ultimate arrogance. And it was like, she slapped me in the face. I kind of stared at the floor. And I started going through my mind. And I thought, my guilt me mine, I did this, I did that. Imagine people having to listen to that, and all that stuff. I mean, at first, I was mad for about three seconds. And then I looked at her and I said, I won't do anyone any good. If I'm stuck there. And you know, the sage nod. And I had a whiff of something that day, I knew that there would be a way to walk forward, somehow, some way. But right after that, what greats you as you walk out of that room is such hurt and such loneliness and isolation and uselessness. And you just pick that mantle back up again, of your shame. And this is who we are. And this is where I am. So it was a definitely a door opener. But it took many years to have anything really sink in to make any kind of change. Claire Rogers Tell me and our listeners about your visit from Tom. Karen Andrea Campbell Oh, well, I was in the midst and the grip of what I just described about guilt and the shame. And I didn't dare think of him. I really didn't, I was afraid one day that maybe the memories would return and maybe I'd remember the accident. And so maybe if I didn't remember him too much, I wouldn't fall apart while I was there. And I had been working with some religious groups and you know, my Zen people. And I thought, I've got to start looking at this. And so it was in the back of my mind. And I was thinking about all this as I was walking about how am I going to resolve this. And maybe that just putting it in my mind like that might had brought it up. But all of a sudden, there he is. He is he's standing in front of me on the prison yard. And he's in his funny old purple shirt, and he's got a ski pass around his neck. And he's looking at me and he's a little bit ticked, a little bit amused and he says, what are you doing? What are you doing? Don’t waste a day. I said You're not mad at me? He said get out there. I wouldn't waste a day. And then he was gone. And it was like this breeze. And that's exactly what he would have said to me. And that's exactly how he would have looked. And I know it sounds crazy, but it was real. It was. I could smell him and, and he talked to me in a way that I needed to hear that he was okay. And I could start maybe moving in another direction. And I went back into my cell and I opened up my tank drawer and in the back of a folder, I kept some pictures of him. And there he was, and, I started, from then on to shift and get over myself, I guess. Claire Rogers Beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. I want to segue. I think this personally is one of the most shocking statements I read in your book. It certainly shocked me because I hadn't thought about this myself. But you said that one of your fellow inmates had said to you, life as an inmate is filled with unknown deprivation, the average person has no idea to deny a person the sun or the night sky is cruel and inhumane punishment. And you wrote of that exchange, I will never look at the night sky again, without remembering when I could not. The other day, I looked at the night sky and this beautiful red gorgeous sunset, on the River Thames in London, and your words from your book circle back to me, and I mentioned your quote to my husband, and I said, you know what? we need to look at the sunrise and the sunset for the people who cannot, we need to look at the moon for the people who cannot and the stars for those that cannot. And that's actually something that I will take forward from your book - to remember that there are people locked up, who are locked up because of their personal tragedy or tragedies that have actually occurred. I know there's a different category for people who have done premeditated things, and so forth. But there's a lot of people in prison for a variety of reasons - perhaps they weren't even born into a chance or needs must. I'm not condoning, I'm just saying we have to as a society, I guess think about how we want to deal with tragedy and how we want to deal with people who are not born with any opportunities. And it leads me on to critical yet important subject, which is prison reform. Neither one of us are well versed to have an articulate and meaningful conversation about it, so I'll leave it there unless you do have an opinion you want to share. But my impression reading your book is that there were a few key Department of Corrections staff who were instrumental in helping you transition from being an inmate to being released and reading your book. They seem to actually lead you to think about a path forward, which to me speaks to a bit of prison reform. So I was wondering if you could kind of share those experiences with me? Karen Andrea Campbell Yes, I'd be happy to talk about that, like you said, we're not good with prison reform. And there was no prison reform for me when I was in there unless you took your own initiative, and sought out different ways, you know, reading books, whatever. But one of the great sources for me was the staff, which was at the heart of the reform that you seek for yourself. Also, I never forget the victims, who helped me. And I do believe my sentence is fair, and they needed some justification for the crime that happened. And for me to do that sentence, and if that means that I am locked up for a while, and that makes peace for others, then that's what needs to happen. Where we have the trouble is, we lock up people and don’t tell them how to change. We don't give them ideas about maybe taking atonement or, you know, inventory or things like that. And so I tried to do that kind of work. And especially with the staff members, I found a couple that were so helpful. And it just takes one of them to see you as a human being. And your experience becomes more bearable. You are motivated, to be a better person. And to come out of there, the least you could do is leave prison a better person than when you went in despite all odds. And there was one there was two fellows that I would point to and the first one is called Big Buck. Big Buck was my maintenance boss. Huge, enormous cowboy of a fellow and what he did was astonishing. He looked you in the eye with a bullet stick and he would spend time with us every morning and every night, kind of like a Zen check in. He never preached, he never told us what to do. He just asked us questions. Like one of the things he might say is, so how's everybody's budget? who's got a bank account on the outside? and he’d go around the table, simply just staring at each individual, never asking them to speak, just letting them talk, letting them think their way through starting to problem solve things like that. And he was the only one who did that, while I was there. That was the only so called reform that the group of women were lucky enough to get. And I wish there was a way maybe he can get this book in his hands. I just wish there was a way I could thank him. There was another one, the Captain. And he was rumored to be a very fair man, a good man. And one night, we had a blizzard, and the snow was coming down. And I was lucky enough to be able to go out and shovel to make the sidewalk safe. And he and I were on a team together. And we got to work. It was coming down heavy. And it was it was astonishing to me that he just turned around and started working and had no thoughts whatsoever that I could take the shovel and brain him. He just went right to work. And we were working along, and he said, you know, you are doing a good job here, Baker which was my married name at that time. And I said well yeah, I'm from Minnesota. He says, well, you you've done a good job to get this, they don't give this job out to just anybody. And I said, and I’m a little indignant. So you know, I've had good jobs before, I paid taxes and, you know, had medical insurance. And he stopped working, I can picture it. It was not unsimilar to Tom in the snow on the last night of my memory of the accident, I can just see this Captain standing there saying, you know, I've got a good job too. And he said, I've got to follow the rules, Baker, you know, I've got to pay taxes, I've got to drive 55. That's just the way life is. And I've made peace with that. And I want to live in this country. So that's what I do. And I wake up in the morning, and I do it every day. And I thought it's just that simple. Could someone just please say this to us, you know. And I watched him walk away and snow just falling on his bald head. And he really inspired me. Just that gentle, positive path forward. Claire Rogers It sounds to me like he recognized your humanity. There was a common humanity there. Karen Andrea Campbell I was so touched, I was so touched that someone - it's kind of like, being the freshman and the senior gives you a nod. I know that trivializes it. But you do become more childlike there because you're not really allowed to think for yourself or take initiatives on things. And so when someone of authority, or a higher up recognizes you in some way, it's really something and it does inspire you. Claire Rogers So what would you say to someone who's listening to this conversation? Who may struggle with the idea of prison reform? Or perhaps has even been a victim of crime in the past, and so would find listening to our conversation uncomfortable and perhaps would even go so far as to say that prisoners get what they deserve? What would your response be to that? Karen Andrea Campbell Well, you know, I think what we have to do is, we have to go forward with something called restorative justice. And that way the victims are heard. I'm not an expert at it, but I do know it starts with repairing the harm that was done in the first place. And the offender to take responsibility for things even before they have a chance to re integrate. And there are people I hope are working on it right now. But it's, I think everybody's entitled to have anger if they've been harmed. And remorse is appropriate if you have offended and we just needed find a way though. I don't know. I fully don't know. I really don't know. Claire Rogers No - I think the answer of I don't know is good. Karen Andrea Campbell All I can tell you is what happened to me when I was there, there was no parole prep classes. By rejoining society, you got a handful of condoms, you got your medical record, you got a bus pass and a $50 grocery card. And then they asked you one question, and they said, how are you getting off the property, are you're going to take a bus, or do you have a ride? because they didn't want you to be their responsibility anymore. So needless to say, we have a long way to go to have some sort of solution and prison reform. Claire Rogers So prior to this experience, did you have any thoughts on prisoners and prison reform? Or did you never think about it before? Or how have those perceptions changed? Karen Andrea Campbell A prisoner to me is someone I would have never met. A prisoner to me would have been someone dark and terrifying. And probably dishonest. I to this day of respect, especially in this time of craziness, have respect for the law enforcement people in my town. And if there's something that happens at my home, and I need their protection, I wouldn't hesitate to call. I think that they go above and beyond as first responders. I have all the respect in the world for those people. And I would have seen inmates as less desirables. I didn't know, I really had no idea. And I don't think I was a very compassionate person before I went to prison. I'm sure that prison taught me the compassion I needed in order to be just a better human being. If you can believe it, I became a better human being and citizen by being a prisoner. Claire Rogers I'd like to touch on that what you just said. So looking at your journey, in its entirety, from guilt, to forgiveness to redemption, you say that it's changed you in the fact that you become more compassionate. How else has it changed your life since being released? Karen Andrea Campbell You know, I'd like to answer that question, Claire, in a way that's relatable to your Boot Camp for the mind & Soul and anybody who's a seeker. You think about a prison experience as something unrelatable, kind of fantastic, and something that will never happen to you. But, I mean, is it really that different? And I think about all the people out there who build their own walls around themselves, keep people out to keep themselves in, maybe they hoard, maybe they overeat, you know, maybe they are a victim of sexual or domestic abuse, and there's great shame. It takes purposeful study and behavior changes to look forward, and to maybe get counselling to make an attempt. But it's horribly, horribly hard. And that's why it took me nine years to write that book. I just could only go so deep; it was just too devastating to admit all the pain that was inside of me. And with each revision, I would just go deeper, and another layer of deeper and there were times when I would just be weeping, typing it the book, and I just had to take those layers off slowly and slowly. And I noticed that I would feed my shame. I would purposely self-isolate and keep myself away from people. Because I had this horrible secret about myself. I was back to work again. And I wasn't allowed to talk about my crime and be open about it. So I never made friends because I was afraid, they'd find out one day and all this secretiveness would make me a false person. And so that was a really difficult path upward. When you are isolated, and you're self-isolated, and you talk yourself into that, I had not really forgiven myself, I just wrote about it. But I hadn't done the deep work, I was too afraid still. And I was sick and tired of writing the book. I wanted it over Claire, I wanted to just be a normal person. And there was a day that I'd written the end, but I didn't like it. And I remember, there was a thought of how to end the book, and it started coming at me, I didn't know what shape it was taking it was, Oh, it was so dark. And I never said it out loud. The prison was really, really bad. I was just so freaked out. But that's what I said. I said, it was really bad. And I remember I had to hang on to the desk, I almost fell over. And I said, I'm damaged. And yet something shifted. And kind of like that scene where Tom appeared to me on the prison yard. My young self-appeared to me. And oh, my goodness, I was such a cocky child, Claire, I had these long, skinny legs. And that day, I was wearing plaid pants. And my hair was curly mess. And I was holding Winnie the Pooh far past the time when any kids should be carrying that thing around. And I just thought, she's good. And she's still in me. And maybe, maybe damage happened to me, maybe that was a horrible experience, and horrible for the victims and my family. But I am not a damaged person in my essence. And I needed to sink all the way down. Just so I could see my way forward and find a way to finish that damn book. And that's what I did. Claire Rogers So if people were to read your book, what's the one thing you would want them to take away from it? Karen Andrea Campbell I've thought about this so many times. And there's only one answer for me. I was put in a place to listen to stories. And I wrote them all down. I never could have done that. Without doing that. I had scraps of paper all over my floor. And my golden retriever used to put her paw on one slip, like, let's talk about mittens. And I had this precious gift of the stories. And when I wrote about them, I could see them and wondered how they were doing. And if people could read this book and see them the way I saw them. That is my job. I have to humanize these people. And that is the step that comes first in any sort of discussions about prison reform. Who are they? Can we see them as a human being? And then I think I would punt it to people who are smart and understand who could work with laws and things like that. It is my job to write those stories and tell the stories. Claire Rogers I think that's a great way to end. Karen. Thank you for joining Boot Camp for the Mind & Soul. I very much appreciate you and our discussion. Karen Andrea Campbell Thank you. Claire Rogers You can purchase Karen Campbell's book Falling: Hard Lessons and the Redemption of the Woman Next Doorthrough Amazon. And you can learn more about Karen by visiting her website, https://www.karencampbellwrites.com I personally highly recommend Karen's book. It is raw, emotional, authentic and informative and opens the door to challenge our views on both forgiveness as well as the prison system. That concludes this week's episode of Boot Camp for the Mind & Soul. Don't forget to rate and review and subscribe. Tune back in next Wednesday for next week's episode. If you have any questions about this episode or anything about the podcast, then don't forget to visit https://www.itopiacoaching.com
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