SUMMARY OF THE SHOW
Toffy Charupatanapongse is the co-founder of MindTerra, a community using writing and journaling as a tool for mental well-being. She has a Master's in Education from the University of Pennsylvania and uses her education experience to design and create meaningful community-oriented programs at MindTerra. Toffy has this passion for mental health and well-being because in her freshmen year of college, her father died by suicide. After having to navigate her own mental well-being and seeing that mental illness can be a silent epidemic affecting those closest to her without her knowledge, it became the fire that made her passionate about giving back in this field. TOPICS THAT I DISCUSS WITH TOFFY:
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SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Claire Rogers I'm Claire Rogers, and you're listening to Boot Camp for the Mind & Soul, the podcast that gives you an inner workout. Before we get started, remember, just like in a gym where you may not be able to use all the equipment, pick up what you can in this episode and leave behind what you can't. Your inner workout starts now. My next guest Toffy is the co-founder of MindTerra, a community using writing and journaling as a tool for mental well-being. She has a master's in education from the University of Pennsylvania, and uses her education experience to design and create meaningful community-oriented programs at MindTerra. Toffy has this passion for mental health and well-being after having to navigate her own mental well-being after her father died by suicide in her freshman year in college. She realized that mental illness can be a silent epidemic affecting those closest to her without her knowledge, and it became a fire that pushes her to make a difference in this field. Welcome Toffy, and thank you for joining Boot Camp for the mind & Soul podcast. Toffy Charupatanapongse Thanks, Claire, for having me. Claire Rogers Toffy, I'm speaking to you while you're still living in Thailand, however, you went to school in the United States. Can you tell me about your upbringing and where you were born and raised? Toffy Charupatanapongse Yeah, of course. So, I was born in Thailand. But then I spent the formative years of my childhood in the UK, actually. And then I came back to Thailand, I went to school, I went to an American School for the whole thing. And then after graduating, I went to do college and grad school in the US. And I actually just got back to Thailand, a month ago. So, it's been pretty recent. Claire Rogers And what's it like navigating all these different cultures, Toffy Charupatanapongse It's confusing to say the least. I feel like there's two ways to look at it. On one hand, I feel like growing up amidst two cultures, Thailand and the US, there's a lot of feeling like you're not good enough for one place, like you're too Western to be Thai and two Asian to be American. So, you kind of occupy this in between space. Or the other way of looking at it is, you get the best of both cultures, you're influenced by both. And honestly, I think my identity is something that I still continue to struggle with. But I heard this TED Talk a couple years ago, where instead of asking someone where they're from, you ask them where they're local. And that really resonated with me, because I think my identity is multifaceted. It's ever changing. And it's a comforting thought. And I feel like identity is also like all these outfits and costumes that you were the one that fits you best for different occasions. So going back and forth between the two countries, I shed parts of my identity, but in a way, it's still like the outfits that you wear; they're still pieces of you, even though they look different in different occasions. Claire Rogers So, for example, I'm Canadian, I live in London, but I've lived in loads of countries around the world over 25 years. But no matter where I have lived, whether it's London or Tokyo, or Australia, or Thailand, I always felt Canadian at my roots. Do you always feel at your roots, Thai or not? Toffy Charupatanapongse Not really, I feel like the only thing that keeps me grounded back here is my passport. And knowing that I will always be welcome here. I can always come back here. But the roots are not very strong. And I reflected on it recently. And I think we'll go into this later, but I think it might have had to do with my experience of after I left for college, and when I came back, I never felt like there was a home because of what happened. So maybe that had something to do with it. Claire Rogers Okay, we'll go into that in a minute. So, to that point, what was your family like? Toffy Charupatanapongse My family is small. I'm an only child. So, growing up, I always wanted siblings, but I never got any. So, I learned how to entertain myself, talk to myself. I grew up very simple life without much extravagance. We lived in a small house, but lots of emphasis on school and academics and activities. And I always tell people, I grew up with two mothers. My Mom and my Aunt, my Dad's Sister, and they were sort of my two mother figures. So, I guess I grew up with three parents. And that was the way it always was. Claire Rogers So, tell me about your Dad, what was your relationship like with him? Toffy Charupatanapongse He was a man of few words. He loved silently. Maybe he loved through actions. My relationship with him...we weren't as close as I was with my Mom. But there were things we connected over. Like sports, I played basketball. He used to play basketball, we would watch sports together volleyball, tennis. I remember this one night, And it's really interesting the things that you remember, but I remember staying up at like 2am, watching this tennis match with him that went on forever. He would always help me with my math homework. He was very smart, very intelligent, and he loved American music and movies. And media that rubbed off on me, like the both of us could probably rattle off all the names of celebs from like the 1970s. He loved to travel and see new places. But as a person, he was very exacting. Everything had to be perfect, like to the tee, cross all your T's dot all your I's. And by nature of his job, he had to be that way. He's the type of person to get worked up if someone is running five minutes late. And I think that's actually a trait that I've picked up from him is just being so on the dot. I think he was calm most of the time. But he would get also very intense emotions -, like a burst. You could think of it like a volcano that lays dormant and there's nothing wrong. It's just there. But when it erupts, I feel like he could erupt really fiery emotions. But I think for me, I always learn to see the good and enjoy the good moments and the good memories. Claire Rogers Your father sadly passed away by suicide. Are you comfortable sharing with me how that happened? And how you came to learn with his passing? Toffy Charupatanapongse Yeah, thank you for providing the space to talk and reflect about it. And first off, thank you for using the language, passed away by suicide. I think for those of you listening out there, the phrase committed suicide is laden with stigma and blame. And so, it's good to use phrases like died by suicide because it doesn't put blame on the person, like you don't commit a heart attack. So yeah, it happened freshman year of college, I think I'd been away from home, maybe two months and I did not see it coming. It was very out of the blue. The way in which I learned about it was actually very, very stressful and terrible. I woke up one morning, and I had a midterm that day, and I get this text from an acquaintance. And they're like, I'm so sorry for your loss. And at that point, I'm just like, okay, this is a mistake, you know, they have the wrong person. I have no idea what they're talking about. But that kind of triggered something in me. And long story short, throughout the day, I was just trying to figure out what was happening. I was trying to contact home but with the time difference, no one was picking up. So, I just kept freaking out throughout the day until in the afternoon, another text came in and said, you know, I'm sorry for your loss, my condolences, and then its kind of just like all clicked for me. I think that was the worst part. And I didn't learn that it was a suicide either. Because my family did not tell me. I ended up learning, I think it was through a friend or something like that. They kept me in the dark because they wanted me to go to my midterm because they're very big on academics. So, they wanted me to not get thrown off track. I ended up finding out about his death, half an hour before taking this midterm. And then it was at the airport on the way home when I found out how it happened. And none of this was through family. And so, I came back home for three days for the funeral and then flew straight back to California for school. Claire Rogers So, did you find out that he passed away by suicide when you went home? Or did you find out about that much later? Toffy Charupatanapongse I found out at the airport at LAX, waiting for my flight. Claire Rogers Oh, to go to Thailand. That's when you found out? Toffy Charupatanapongse Yeah. Claire Rogers And so, did you know that your father was suffering from mental health challenges? Or did anybody in the family know or was a blindside? Toffy Charupatanapongse For me, I didn't know. I didn't know that he was suffering with mental health challenges. Maybe it was apparent to others in my family. But you know what, the whole stigma against these issues it's not talked about. So, I never knew. And it actually surprised me a year later, after his passing, when I was talking to a friend's mom, and she's in the health healthcare space, and she said he was sick. And I was like, sick? He wasn't sick. And she was like, oh, no, but he was sick here in his mind. And so, I think, for me, the concept and everything that happened, took time to process as well. Claire Rogers And how did the rest of your family deal with it? Was there coping strategies that you all did? Did you get therapy? How did you in that initial timeframe, deal with that? Toffy Charupatanapongse So, my Mom, she went straight to the temple. She was on a retreat in the temple and that was how she sought support. My Aunt, I think she just went back to work and worked through it. I was at school; I was far away from Thailand, and far away from everything happening there. So, I was kind of just doing school, going to classes, just trying to pass the quarter at that point. And so, I think we kind of just coped in our own individual ways, and we never talked about it. Claire Rogers So, do you think now retrospectively, were there warning signs that you or other family members may have missed? I mean, maybe you would have missed the warning signs because you lived overseas. But do you think there was a warning sign that anybody could have seen? Toffy Charupatanapongse I don't think for myself personally, because I was overseas, I was too far away to see anything. And also growing up when you're a kid, even if there were warning signs, before I left for college, I don't think I was able to catch them. No, you're growing up. You're a teenager, you don't see those things. For my family, I think that they always knew he had very intense emotions, very fiery emotions that could push him to do things. And obviously, this is just coming from what I think; I don't think that we thought that this could have happened or would have happened. Claire Rogers What do you mean by intense emotions? Toffy Charupatanapongse Just bursts of things for very trivial reasons. He would get mad and act out - physically, like, throwing a phone or something or destroying property. Never us, but he would take it out on items and things. Claire Rogers When he passed away, was there a note or anything? Did you find out, for example, was work a really bad place? Or was there any sort of thing that you could cling to to say, oh, that's what pushed him over the edge? Or here's an explanation. Toffy Charupatanapongse No, that was the first thing I asked as well - was there a note? Was there a reason? Was there something that was left behind? But I never got any of those answers. And I think I'm at a point where, you just accept that there are some questions that you don't get answers to, and this is one of them for me. But yeah, there was there was like no inclination on my part that this was happening. I was texting him a couple of days before it happened. Claire Rogers And so how did losing your father impact you? And especially how did losing your father this way impact you? Because I'm imagining losing him this way is going to be a lot different from a father passing away from a car accident or an illness, a different type of illness, not mental illness. So how does that impact you and also how does it impact you knowing he passed away this way? Toffy Charupatanapongse Losing a parent is something inevitable; everyone's going to go through it. But I think going through it when you're so young, and especially happening this way, it made me feel like no one understood what I was going through. So, I went through it on my own, it made me turn inward, made me very independent. I didn't reach out for help. And I remember, I did actually try to go to counselling services at my institution. But because they were so backlogged, there were so many appointments, it took me like three weeks before I could get a screening appointment, and then like one more month before I could get an actual appointment. And so that wasn't working for me. And like I mentioned before, I think, because of his passing, every time I came back to Thailand, for the breaks, it would always be a different living situation, a different setup, belongings were spread between places and I was living out of a suitcases. So maybe, to go back to your earlier question, that is the feeling of being untethered to this place, because it felt like I was not coming back to a home anymore. I was coming back to remnants of what was a life here, and what was a home. Claire Rogers You sound like you've ultimately gotten to a place of acceptance and peace with how your father passed away. Would that be a correct statement? Toffy Charupatanapongse You know, Claire, I think getting to a place of acceptance and peace is a lifelong process. It's a spectrum and you kind of walk it and you keep growing. It took me personally four years to be able to talk about it without crying, because prior to that, any mention, any talk, it would just be uncontrollable tears just coming out and I just couldn't control it. It took me six years on the six-year mark to maybe get to that space of acceptance that you're talking about, to realize that it wasn't about me, it had nothing to do with me, but rather was something that he needed to do for himself. Because for a long time, there was a voice in my head nagging and asking myself, oh, well, what could you have done better? Could you have been better, so he would want to stay? But then I realized, this is just something that happened, and it has nothing to do with me. But like I said, I think healing, acceptance, peace, it's going to be a lifelong process. And doing this interview, talking to you about it was actually terrifying for me, because I've talked about it with really close friends. But I'd never, like put it out there. And I think having this conversation with you is part of that healing, to be able to tell my story, in my own way authentically to reflect and revisit what happened and be confident and just say this is my story. This is what happens. And it doesn't matter what other people think or what other people are going to say. Claire Rogers And how come you felt terrified to share it before? Toffy Charupatanapongse Maybe because on one hand, I don't want it to be a pity party. I hate the look on people's faces when I tell them oh, my father has passed away. And it's just this look and they're like, oh, I'm so sorry. I just didn't want any of that pity. And perhaps it's also because it's very stigmatized. Suicide, like no one talks about it. I mean, more people are talking about it, but suicide is still very much just looked down upon. So maybe it was a stigma as well. Maybe also realizing that now that I've told my story, it's just out there on the internet forever. I also didn't want it to be an attention grabber because I am working on MindTerra right now, and we are all about mental health. For the longest time, none of my team members knew about this. And I just didn't want it to be like clickbait essentially. Claire Rogers So, are they going to find out about it when they listen to this? Toffy Charupatanapongse Yeah, they are. Claire Rogers Okay, good for you. I'm proud of you. I'm proud of you for being so authentic. And I'm grateful that you trust me to do this for you. Toffy Charupatanapongse Thank you. Claire Rogers So, you just said that reaching a place of acceptance and peace is a journey and so far, I think you said you're six years in, did you get any help? Did you ask for help? Or did you read books about it? Did you go onto forums? Did you learn? How did you even start that process? Toffy Charupatanapongse Yeah, yeah, I'm about six and a half years into it. Like I said, I think in the beginning, I tried therapy, it didn't really work out for me, maybe because I was going about it the wrong way. But I didn't really read books or anything. It was just a gradual progression of going through it myself, I turned inward. I just didn't talk about it with any other people, maybe I just swept it under the rug, because it was easy not to talk about it, when you're halfway across the world. And also, when you're in a different place, there are no reminders, there's no places and locations that you go to, you're like, oh, I came here with this person. So, it was very easy to just sweep under the rug. Claire Rogers And so, you just said prior to this, that you don't want the pity party, you don't want that reaction when you say that your fathers passed away. So, if you do tell someone that your father has passed away, and if you feel confident to tell them that he passed away by suicide, what response would you want? Because I think that would be very valuable for listeners, what is the appropriate response? Toffy Charupatanapongse I think - thank you for sharing that. Thank you for trusting me to tell me that. Because it's something that I'm trying to be more conscious as well, the word I'm sorry, or I mean, the phrase I'm sorry. It's one that I'm still processing and still wrapping my head around. Like when someone offers me there sorry, what do I do with it? If I don't want it? I'm just like, I don't know what to do with your I'm sorry. And for a long time, I didn't tell people, I just naturally avoided the phrase, my parents from my vocabulary, it always became my family. So anytime it would come up, like, oh, what do your parents do? Where do your parents live? Oh, my family lives in Thailand, my family does this. It just became so natural for me. I didn't want to tell anyone; I didn't want to talk about it. And so, I think to tell someone, yeah, my dad passed away by suicide, I think that is vulnerability. That's you trusting the person and a good response, not a good response, but I would prefer, thank you for sharing that over, I'm so sorry, that happened to you. Claire Rogers That is very good feedback. And I thank you for saying that. Because I think that definitely, it's helpful for me. I've not met somebody who shared with me that their loved one has passed away by suicide, but now I know, the appropriate response. And now, so do our listeners. So, losing your father, in a sense, you've said to me previously, has given you a purpose in life. And you now really want to give back, which is very much aligned with my core values, which is why I wanted you on the podcast. So, tell me about MindTerra and how you came up with this idea. Toffy Charupatanapongse I mean, it's interesting, because I didn't connect the dots right away. I don't know when the interest in mental health emerged. The earliest I can remember is maybe grad school when I realized that mental health was so important to me, and I wanted to pursue mental health. And I was doing so because I was doing a Master’s in Education; I got really interested in student mental health because of what I was going through, when I was in college. So that was kind of where the inkling surfaced. And then I realized, I really want to give back in this space. I even applied to a PhD in psychology because I thought that was how I was going to give back. But MindTerra really kind of just happened in a way, its kind of was just a happy coincidence. Not happy coincidence, but its kind of just fell into our laps. So, it was the beginning of the pandemic. I think people were looking for connection in a time of isolation. I'd always enjoyed writing and journaling. I've been journaling since I was young. That's something that my family or rather my Aunt kind of instilled into me. And it was a very serendipitous moment of like, oh, what if we combine mental health and journaling and writing and using writing as a tool to care for your mental well-being? And so, we've gone through lots of iterations. And now you know, as the name suggests, MindTerra is a space for the mind to ground down. It's a space where you can bring yourself as you are. We want people who come to feel heard and valued and listened to and embraced and just spread the vibe of love and presence. Because I think in a world that's so busy, you're always on go, you're always on go mode, just taking half an hour or an hour to be with yourself to reflect with your thoughts to be amongst a community that really cares for you, and wants to hear about how your day is, or what you're up to, I think that's really important. Claire Rogers So, explain to me what that community looks like, is it an online forum or community? Can you explain how that works? Toffy Charupatanapongse Yeah, so because we started during the pandemic, everything is currently online. And we provide live guided journaling sessions. So, folks come together, we provide the space and the prompts. But then everyone kind of journals together. And then we have breakout rooms where people are welcome to share their writing if they want to, but it's really more about what did that writing uncover for you? What did you discover, in the 5-10 minutes that you took to just be with your thoughts and yourself? So, after the writing session, we open it up to whoever wants to share, there's always a host or facilitator that kind of guides the conversation. And then we also have a clinical advisor to make sure that anything we're doing, we're not crossing any red lines, because I don't have a clinical degree. So, it comes from a place of my own experience. And so, we just want to make sure the space is, is safe and accessible for everyone. Claire Rogers And are people writing about any topic or all topics or all themes? Or is it specifically suicide? Toffy Charupatanapongse No, it's very open. Each session has a different theme. So maybe there's one on self-love, maybe there's one on confidence, we've had one identity. They're all different themes. But they all have to do with mental wellness, and really caring for yourself and self-care, and bringing in ways that you can recognize your own feelings, ways that you can communicate your emotions, manage them managing stress. So, we try to keep it broad, but it kind of revolves around like mental well-being, self-awareness and emotional literacy. Claire Rogers Amazing. So, if someone was to listen to this episode, what suggestions or ideas do you have to approach someone who they may believe has clinical depression or suicidal ideations? Toffy Charupatanapongse Yeah, I just want to preface my answer by saying I don't have a clinical qualification. So, my advice comes purely from my own experience. Claire Rogers I appreciate that we definitely need the professionals. But equally, I think it's really important to give voice to the people who have experience because with professionals that don't have that experience themselves, there's a gap. Toffy Charupatanapongse I would say check in with them without putting them on the spot and just showing them that you care. I think, how are you doing can be a very overwhelming question to answer. And sometimes when people ask me that question, I have to stop and think and pause. And I'm like, how am I doing? I don't know how I'm doing.... like, how am I doing today? How am I doing? Generally, it's, it can be very overwhelming. So maybe one thing more specific, how has your day been? To make that scope easier to answer? Also, I find that when you model vulnerability, people tend to open up more. So, I mean, you could say something like, you know, I've been having a very busy week lately, I've had a very off week, how was your week and maybe opening that up if you are feeling that way can also help them reach out to you. But the other two things I would say is also offer support without demanding a response. So, you can just say like, Hey, I'm checking in on you. I hope you're okay. But if not, I'm here for you. If you need to talk, I will always be here. Take your time, and make sure that you actually do continue to check in on them because I remember when it happened for me, like I got an influx of messages saying let me know how I can help, I'm here for you. But there were like one offs. And like at that moment, like I didn't know what I needed from people. And I didn't feel like I could reach out again. But if someone were to like message, you know, every week or every two weeks, I feel like maybe I would have reached out for that olive branch. And then just validating them, telling them, it's okay to ask for help. It's okay to say no, I love you. You're important to me. Letting them know that you're there for them, making your presence known and just don't say it once and disappear. Claire Rogers I would agree. I would say, I don't have your specific experience, but definitely my approach to people is, you're in a safe and validating place with me, anything you say to me, there's no judgement. And I think that's an important thing that probably in your situation would be a good thing to say as well - no judgement, say anything you want. No judgement, it's safe and a validating place. Toffy Charupatanapongse I love that. Claire Rogers So, if someone's listening to this episode and has lost someone due to suicide, what steps or advice would you offer them in terms of healing from the pain or trauma of losing someone this way? Toffy Charupatanapongse I think the pain is never going to go away. It's never going to fully dissipate. It simply morphs into different forms; it takes different shapes. And when people say, it will get better, time will heal. Time always heals. I think what time allows you to do is, time allows you to grow stronger. And that's why it becomes better. So, I would say, do not rush yourself. And there's no right or wrong way to heal. We all heal in our own ways. So be patient, stay present, seek help and support and know that you are not alone. Claire Rogers What do you think we can do as a society to lift the stigma of talking about suicide? Toffy Charupatanapongse I think that lifting the stigma with suicide comes from just more conversations around mental health. Then the small ways are - When you ask someone, how are you? It's not fine. Thank you and you. It's okay. Let me stop, pause and think about how I'm really doing. It's also in the workplace... like if you need to take a mental health day, it's having policies that are allowing you and enabling you to do that. I think, though, at an everyday level, what everyone can do, I think we can just be more mindful about our language, and recognize the way that words can conceal emotions, like pleasantries, I think are a very easy one, where they don't actually allow you to go deeper. And, you know, I've had conversations where someone has asked me, how are you? And I'm like, you know, I'm having a bad day today. And they said, you know, I really appreciate you saying that because I’m also been feeling really tired today. And that kind of morphed into a conversation about okay, how are you actually doing? How's your mental health and those conversations when they happen, like everywhere, that slowly lifts the stigma of mental health. Claire Rogers Amazing. Well, I think that's a great way to wrap up the show Toffy, thank you so much for joining Boot Camp for the Mind & Soul. I very much appreciate you sharing your story. And I very much appreciate that I'm the first one you told. Thank you for that honor. So, this concludes this week's episode of Boot Camp for the Mind & Soul. If you would like to learn more about Toffy and MindTerra, then please visit www.mindterra.co Toffy Charupatanapongse Thank you so much Claire for the safe space to tell my story. Claire Rogers My pleasure. That concludes this week's episode of Boot Camp for the Mind & Soul. Don't forget to rate and review and subscribe. Tune back in next Wednesday for next week's episode. If you have any questions about this episode visit https://www.itopiacoaching.com and contact me.
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